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MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

Rick1234 — Mon, 03 Aug 2026 03:32:16 GMT

Hello Element14 community!

My quest is to build an MMM ultrasonic water treatment system for use in the motel and laundromat industries.

Basically, to ultrasonically negate the scaling ability of the minerals in the water before they can form on the inside of the pipes and heat exchangers walls.

The MMM paradigm greatly eases the normally strict mechanical ultrasonic interface to the target load ..... as the MMM generator constantly frequency "sweeps" and "optimizes" its effects on the scaling minerals in the water.

My early thoughts:

PC control to set parameters (power, frequency sweep, modulation, etc) + Adaptive Digital Signal Processor (ADSP) + Ultrasonic Power Driver

Minimum ultrasonic "contact" time with the scaling minerals (calcium & magnesium) during a max. 50 gpm water flow rate = 1.5 seconds

Ultrasonic transducer and horn to be of a "clamp-on" type design (ie: surrounding the water feed pipe)

The main attribute of MMM is its ability to "self-adapt" to any varying physical sonic envelope and load ..... on-the fly! (w/feedback loop sensor)

Its my contention, that in this application, the sonic envelope (pipe) and load (water) is "fixed" and should afford a simpler software implementation script.

Where to start? (Note: i'm day one working with ultrasonics!)

Can anyone recommend a preassembled factory evaluation ADSP board suitable for this application and an ultrasonic power driver board?

Thank-you!

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

Rick1234 — Wed, 05 Aug 2026 22:05:29 GMT

Agreed! ....... well said! : )

Well , I can't just go and buy their OEM unit ...... as even the smallest version is $25,000.00 !! : (

But, I did download their MMM control software! : )

This affords many "clues" as to what's going on behind the scenes as to the manipulation of the ultrasound to its MMM script.

I see the obvious set high/low range parameters for the ADSP ...... no problem! The hard part will be scripting the scanning matrix of all the variables (ie: power, frequency, PWM, phase, etc) to emulate the attributes of MMM.

My first thoughts are: the nature of such a script would require the extensive use of a Kalman filter.

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

michaelkellett — Wed, 05 Aug 2026 09:03:04 GMT

Now I see where you are coming from !

The MPI people look serious and real - they have patents and build 100 KW+ systems .

I suspect that the best way to get their technology is to buy some stuff from them.

To replicate it (commercially) you would need to understand the patent situation and be sure you were not infringing.

As far as generating the signals goes then it rather depends on you skills and resources.

I don't know enough about MPI's signal processing to make an actual recommendation but somethign like this might do:

https://www.analog.com/en/resources/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/sharc-audio-module.html#eb-overview

To use it you need a good understanding of DSP and C programming.

Probably access to a tool like MATLAB for signal processing development work.

The ultrasonic driver board - if you are feeling bold then look on Ali Baba and Aliexpress - but if you are at "day one with ultrasonics" be prepared to get your fingers burned - once when you buy it and then again when you try and use it.

I think you might need to hire someone with experience of high power ultrasonics.

But if you want to sell a system to end users like you applications suggest why not plan to buy in the parts from a source like MPI - then you'll have an expert on your side rather than competing. The investment to compete with them on developing making the core ultrasonic components would be large. But developing a system like you washer dryer is bridging a gap between companies like MPI and people who want to wash and dry stuff - there may be a gap there you can fill.

Please note: the above free advice should be treated with the usual caution - I know very little about the context of your project.

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

michaelkellett — Wed, 05 Aug 2026 08:47:05 GMT

Thanks !

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

Rick1234 — Wed, 05 Aug 2026 07:14:03 GMT

.... other uses for MMM ? :

Commercial Laundromat Washer/Dryer (design concept only)

early thoughts:

Uniform MMM ultrasonic tub cavitation would probably complete a single wash cycle in 15 to 20 seconds!

An attribute of ultrasound cavitation in water is its ability to kill viruses, germs, bio films, including Sars-CoV-2 and influenzas-A

Drying of the clothes would start with high speed water vacuum extraction and final drying done under sub-atmospheric pressure (ie: boil off the remaining dampness with no applied heat).

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

cstanton — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 16:33:06 GMT

[quote userid="121623" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57149/mmm-multifrequency-modulated-and-multi-wave-ultrasonic-technology/237693"]

I can't persuade the E14 editor to put the picture above in context after Rick124's request re. the microns and metres.

[/quote]

I can. 🙂

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

Rick1234 — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 16:32:03 GMT

"There is evidence that TAC systems work although they are subject to serious issues with contamination." - MK

The weak aspect of TAC and NAC is that the chlorine in city water degrades these polymer resins ..... shorting their life span in halve!

Its common practice to install a carbon granular tank ahead of the TAC/NAC treatment tanks to negate this issue.

Even then, the normal lifespan of these expensive resins is only 3 to 5 years and has to be replaced.

Using an ultrasonic solution (no polymer resins) to provide the nucleation of the scale components ..... essentially is maintenance free!

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

Rick1234 — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 16:01:48 GMT

community.element14.com/.../mmm_5F00_basics_5F00_presentation-_2800_1_2900_.pdf

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

michaelkellett — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 08:16:01 GMT

I can't persuade the E14 editor to put the picture above in context after Rick124's request re. the microns and metres.

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

michaelkellett — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 08:14:40 GMT

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

michaelkellett — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 08:13:27 GMT

There is evidence that TAC systems work although they are subject to serious issues with contamination.

www.waterboards.ca.gov/.../ion_exchange_water_softeners.pdf

There is some evidence that ultrasonics can reduce subsequent scaling but it was hard to find.

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4441/13/23/3428

I could find nothing at all in terms of research data re. MMM - perhaps you can enlighten us.

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

Rick1234 — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 04:19:24 GMT

......... while your responding:

As I stated in my opening post " ..... negate the scaling ability of the minerals in the water before they can form on the inside of the pipes and heat exchangers" walls"

"I am extremely dubious that ultrasonic excitation of water in pipe will have any effect at all on scaling downstream of the excitation area." -MK

I never said that it did! : ( ...... its the ultrasonically "nucleated" minerals passing thru the water system (pipes, heat exchangers, etc) that can no longer produce scale!

The ultrasonic "contact" with the scaling minerals need only be for 1.5 seconds upstream of everything!

Currently used commercial water treatment systems (TAC & NAC) function by nucleation of the scale minerals as well. And that in of itself has a downstream "existing" scale removable ability!

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

Rick1234 — Mon, 03 Aug 2026 23:43:11 GMT

Hello Michaelkelltt ! : ) .... thank you for your reply!

Can you capture pic of what graph your referring to?

All the displacement graphs I see are in "um" and "mm" ..... don't see any with "m".

Thanks!

RE: Seeking Feedback for Kit on Upcoming LED Design Challenge

beacon_dave — Mon, 03 Aug 2026 16:52:26 GMT

Probably something like this:

https://www.xvxchannel.com/en-gb/collections/keycaps/products/spider-web-imd-keycap

Seeking Feedback for Kit on Upcoming LED Design Challenge

rscasny — Fri, 14 Feb 2025 18:57:33 GMT

Hi All.

As the new year moves on, so does element14's scheduling of new Design Challenges. That's what I want to talk to you about today. Specifically, an LED-focuses challenge.

We haven't done much with lighting/LEDs (although Tariq may have when he managed Project14), but I have a sponsor who is interested in such a challenge. So, I'm exploring here how to make it work, both in terms of your interest in this activity, a propose challenge kit, as well as any theme it would cover.

In this discussion, I wanted to do a few things. For starters, to share with you the parts the challenge's sponsor would like to see in the design. Now, that does not limit us from adding parts to the kit. The next thing I want to do was flesh out the challenge's objective. Let me start with the parts. There's just a few of them:

1315050930002 LED, AlInGaP, InGaN, Red, Green, Blue, SMD, 120 °, Round, R 13mA, G 13mA, B 13mA

[embed:ad4490ac-0ce8-4f2d-a04c-9285646d5689:66d8384e-c598-4242-9c7e-bd2fef201a44:text=More%20Info&style=link&farnell=4420411RL&newark=03AM8417&cpc=&avnetemea=&avnetema=&avnetasia=&comoverride=&cmpoverride=&AreaInteracted=rte-content&bom=]

1313210530000 LED, AlInGaP, InGaN, Red, Green, Blue, SMD, 120 °, Dome, R 5.5mA, G 5.5mA, B 5.5mA

[embed:ad4490ac-0ce8-4f2d-a04c-9285646d5689:02ccc252-21bd-4cba-aa46-e2a3ab33655c:text=More%20Info&style=link&farnell=4420407RL&newark=03AM8416&cpc=&avnetemea=&avnetema=&avnetasia=&comoverride=&cmpoverride=&AreaInteracted=rte-content&bom=]

1312020030000 LED, AlInGaP, InGaN, Red, Green, Blue, SMD, 120 °, Square, R 5.5mA, G 5.5mA, B 5.5mA

[embed:ad4490ac-0ce8-4f2d-a04c-9285646d5689:7052a5f2-0d20-4ce7-87bf-ba28510c624e:text=More%20Info&style=link&farnell=4420406RL&newark=03AM8414&cpc=&avnetemea=&avnetema=&avnetasia=&comoverride=&cmpoverride=&AreaInteracted=rte-content&bom=]

1312121320437 LED, AlInGaP, InGaN, Red, Green, Blue, SMD, 110 °, Square, R 20mA, G 20mA, B 20mA

[embed:ad4490ac-0ce8-4f2d-a04c-9285646d5689:0ea863ed-66ea-48b8-9276-0157498d7ef3:text=More%20Info&style=link&farnell=4420409RL&newark=03AM8415&cpc=&avnetemea=&avnetema=&avnetasia=&comoverride=&cmpoverride=&AreaInteracted=rte-content&bom=]

Click on this link to see the manufacturer's documentation for these products.

Here's a dual wire diagram for the product:

So, the above is kind of bare bones. I expect that there will be much more in the kit depending what the challengers would like to do. Now, what element14 would also include in the challenger's kit would depend on what you would want to do. A few random thoughts about it are:

Creative Lighting
LED Indication
LED Alerting
LED Alarming

The sponsor calls out what they see as the leading applications of their LEDS. They are:

Appliances
Industrial Control
Smart Lighting
Gaming
Decorative Lighting

Now is a good time for a poll:

[embed:33ecb077-39b7-4078-9b1e-dc3f977a690b:43291943-246d-4bc4-a202-60a77fc05968:question=What%20LED%20application%20most%20interests%20you%20for%20this%20challenge%3F&description=&pollOptions=%5B%7B%22OptionId%22%3A%22d1a1f6dd-1637-4d69-84e4-0c1a8fbeb2bc%22%2C%22Option%22%3A%22Appliances%22%2C%22Ordinal%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B%22OptionId%22%3A%22dd80b626-1526-404f-9259-43068cd5612a%22%2C%22Option%22%3A%22Industrial%20Control%22%2C%22Ordinal%22%3A1%7D%2C%7B%22OptionId%22%3A%224d9a1ecb-9753-4713-bc2e-a430236d94b0%22%2C%22Option%22%3A%22Smart%20Lighting%22%2C%22Ordinal%22%3A2%7D%2C%7B%22OptionId%22%3A%226202931e-20e5-4a51-83b6-cf0421383162%22%2C%22Option%22%3A%22Gaming%22%2C%22Ordinal%22%3A3%7D%2C%7B%22OptionId%22%3A%22e38db68e-5875-4585-84ed-27274b8d914c%22%2C%22Option%22%3A%22Decorative%20Lighting%22%2C%22Ordinal%22%3A4%7D%2C%7B%22OptionId%22%3A%22fcfa7bee-074c-4de0-ad2e-e5ec7259516a%22%2C%22Option%22%3A%22Other%3B%20please%20leave%20a%20comment%22%2C%22Ordinal%22%3A5%7D%5D&ShowResultsConfiguration=1%2C1]

So, I've offered a lot of information to chew about.

Just for myself, I think it would be fun to do something along the lines of Creative or Decorative Lighting. I would need to include prototyping gear, as well as a kit of support components. Enclosures I would probably not provide since many of you have 3D printers and have that capability; I also would probably not offer any test equipment as part of the kit, but you can always wish for it! I'd probably like to see some PCBs designed and built, with whatever solution you have available.

Now, if you were more interested in something more practical, the designs would require a larger and probably more extensive kit. I'm thinking industrial control panels etc.

Thanks you for participating in the element14 Communities activities.

What Do you think? If you have the time, please vote in my poll and/or leave a comment.

RE: Seeking Feedback for Kit on Upcoming LED Design Challenge

Emmanueldio — Mon, 03 Aug 2026 14:11:44 GMT

Hello dear, this like is broken said 404 https://www.xvxchannel.com/collections/keycaps/products/xvx-spider-web-version-pattern-oem-profile-imd-tech-keycap-set

I really want to check this out.

RE: MMM (Multifrequency, Modulated, and Multi-wave) Ultrasonic Technology

michaelkellett — Mon, 03 Aug 2026 08:50:16 GMT

I am extremely dubious that ultrasonic excitation of water in pipe will have any effect at all on scaling downstream of the excitation area.

Do you have any research data that suggests this actually works. I did some web searching and found lots of scammy looking companies selling ultrasonic scale preventers but I couldn't find a single reputable looking explanation of how it might work, let alone any data.

This is a typical example:

https://www.ultrasonicdescaling.com/technologies/the-physics-of-industrial-anti-scaling/

See the amazing pulsing diagram near the start and look at the adjacent scale - red = 10E6 microns = 1m.

So it's garbage - 1m displacement in water at 20kHz would need GW.

The diagrams that you show are not convincing.

You need to do some serious research and find some hard evidence that this idea will work before putting any effort into building one.

And since it looks to me as if you'll be competing with some world class scammers as well as plenty of reputable companies making water softeners you'll need a lot more than just an idea to make a business.

Good luck.

RE: The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

beacon_dave — Sat, 01 Aug 2026 11:40:14 GMT

[quote userid="18385" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk"]What parts would make up a kit to design for energy recovery, efficiency, but to produce something useful?[/quote]

For someone wanting to explore LoRa functionality out in the field, then perhaps something like this:

https://lilygo.cc/products/t-display-p4

would be a starting point ? A near ready-to-use pocketable format but with some GPIO exposed to extend the functionality.

[quote userid="18385" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk"]Meanwhile... I'm trying to resist buying meshtastic nodes.[/quote]

There appear to be variants specifically for the likes of Meshtastic or MeshCore:

https://lilygo.cc/collections/lilygo-with-meshtastic

https://lilygo.cc/collections/lilygo-with-meshcore

The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

cstanton — Tue, 28 Jul 2026 13:52:26 GMT

[View:https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_7Wklo6B_so:360:640]

What parts would make up a kit to design for energy recovery, efficiency, but to produce something useful?

If you haven't seen, there is an increasing interest in being "off grid" in the way that's not necessarily in the 'prepper' definition, but mainly the 'not being tracked' definition, and it's beginning to pop off in various ways.

One is the Meshtastic network, and I'm here for it. Not only am I here for it, I'm very interested in what can piggy-back off it to be useful for perhaps more than messaging.

We've already seen the LoraWAN network for local and distant communications, but I feel we haven't quite fully embraced it here on the element14 Community.

And with the advent of hotter, brighter days, solar may be more opportunistic to take advantage of with portable 'nodes' that we can perhaps all run ourselves and maybe, maintain and leave around geocache style, if not carry about ourselves.

I think this would work well as a design challenge, what do you think?

Meanwhile... I'm trying to resist buying meshtastic nodes.

RE: The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

cstanton — Fri, 31 Jul 2026 17:26:21 GMT

[quote userid="41967" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237621"]If you are an individual, then you are likely going to have to configure your equipment to match whatever mesh network technology is actively being used in the area you are in. [/quote]

There're discussions about this and how it's setup on the meshtastic subreddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/meshtastic/comments/1e9khyg/primary_channel_frequency_selection/

https://www.reddit.com/r/meshtastic/comments/1howp8k/frequency_slot_changes/

[quote userid="41967" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237621"] it could probably test a LoRa based mesh network[/quote]

Looks like there are some enterprise solutions for coverage which I didn't expect:

https://netmoregroup.com/news/netmore-lorawan-expands-to-norway-through-collaboration-with-eidsiva/

https://tektelic.com/projects/smart-city-lorawan-network/

RE: The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

beacon_dave — Fri, 31 Jul 2026 17:19:38 GMT

[quote userid="18385" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237606"]where if I'm an individual[/quote]

If you are an individual, then you are likely going to have to configure your equipment to match whatever mesh network technology is actively being used in the area you are in. You are also relying on other individuals in the immediate vicinity to be using the same mesh network technology in order to relay the messages ( assuming that there aren't sufficient repeaters already fully covering the area ).

If you are part of a large group, then your group can choose which is the most appropriate mesh network technology to use. Downside is that if there are beacons and repeaters available, then you won't be able to benefit from them.

So one challenge here could be standards and we all know that "the wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from".

[quote userid="18385" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237606"]where if I'm an individual hiking in Norway, which in Norway you can pretty much go anywhere because 'everyone owns the land'[/quote]

I've always been interested in skiing the 'Peer Gynt Trail' between Espedalen and Skeikampen in Norway. At around 90km in distance, it could probably test a LoRa based mesh network. Especially if you have several individuals in your group travelling at different speeds and joining the trail at different points.

RE: The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

veluv01 — Fri, 31 Jul 2026 11:20:04 GMT

Indeed, Meshtastic does have a lot of potential that extends beyond just messaging. Recently, I'm experimenting on setting up Meshtastic sensor nodes for environment telemetry using an I2C temp and humidity sensor.

The best part is how easy it is to configure everything through the Meshtastic app via GUI.

While I'm still experimenting about the private channels on the meshtastic, I would like to try to send edge AI telemetry data through the mesh network.

RE: The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

JWx — Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:19:45 GMT

it depends on the effective range - especially in the forest and/or hills/mountains/line-of-sign obstacles; but maybe solar-powered repeaters in high places would do the trick (another question how effective would be solar power in the given geographical location)

RE: The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

cstanton — Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:00:34 GMT

[quote userid="41967" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237604"]

I guess that in a lot of circumstances that isn't really an issue and is perhaps even greatly outweighed by the amount of information that can be quickly exchanged via speech.

However if you have the likes of 200 volunteers out on a hillside helping to tackle a wildfire, then with LoRa you perhaps have the ability to autonomously transmit GPS coordinates along with other sensor information, at regular intervals back to a mobile base camp to be able to log last known location.

[/quote]

There's also the 'beacon notification' opportunity here, where if I'm an individual hiking in Norway, which in Norway you can pretty much go anywhere because 'everyone owns the land', if I don't have phone signal, perhaps a mesh network of this could notify me in case of landslide or fire, or simply "hey I have spare hot dogs to share if anyone's around".

[quote userid="41967" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237604"]Any insights into how it is actively being used in these situations ?[/quote]

It's growing in popularity, emfcamp had a collection off people carrying this kit around and you can see casual conversations on reddit and online as to people carrying it around for hiking. I don't have a direct report or metrics to share.

Another term for this is 'meshnology' as people pick it up.

RE: The world's on fire - embrace solar punk

beacon_dave — Thu, 30 Jul 2026 11:44:35 GMT

[quote userid="18385" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237602"]Doesn't that require knowing what channels are in use? and that it's not encrypted?[/quote]

I guess that in a lot of circumstances that isn't really an issue and is perhaps even greatly outweighed by the amount of information that can be quickly exchanged via speech.

[quote userid="18385" url="~/challenges-projects/design-challenges/f/forum/57138/the-world-s-on-fire---embrace-solar-punk/237602"]For meshtastic, it ranges from camping festivals to hiking.[/quote]

Any insights into how it is actively being used in these situations ?