Bitmap import into schematic

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Fri, 13 May 2011 14:40:26 GMT

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

>>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

>>>> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

>>>> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

>>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can

>>> have

>>> a look at that?

>>>

>> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

>> my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

>> from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

>> posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

>> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

>> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

First, this is not a bmp as I expected.
Second, you never save a two color technical image as jpg. That screws it up
totally.

Hmm, MS-Paint stored this strictly as a black & white image, no colors,

no grayscale.

(You can check the quality of your two color image by trying to fill the
background with a different color. If it leaves spots, its bad.)
Third, it appears that the ulp does not handle details well. Write a new

That's my impression as well. Unfortunately I am not a programmer

though, I'd have a hard time writing a ULP.

As for the PNG you are right. It is also my preference. However, when

you want to show results on the actual screen (IOW, a "print screen") it

often results in file sizes much larger than JPEG in a comparable quality.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.

Use another domain or send PM.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Fri, 13 May 2011 14:40:26 GMT

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

>>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

>>>> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

>>>> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

>>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can

>>> have

>>> a look at that?

>>>

>> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

>> my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

>> from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

>> posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

>> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

>> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

First, this is not a bmp as I expected.
Second, you never save a two color technical image as jpg. That screws it up
totally.

Hmm, MS-Paint stored this strictly as a black & white image, no colors,

no grayscale.

(You can check the quality of your two color image by trying to fill the
background with a different color. If it leaves spots, its bad.)
Third, it appears that the ulp does not handle details well. Write a new

That's my impression as well. Unfortunately I am not a programmer

though, I'd have a hard time writing a ULP.

As for the PNG you are right. It is also my preference. However, when

you want to show results on the actual screen (IOW, a "print screen") it

often results in file sizes much larger than JPEG in a comparable quality.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.

Use another domain or send PM.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Fri, 13 May 2011 07:47:05 GMT

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with
my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph
from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I
posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't
look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

Oh and I forgot.. Use PNG format for posting lossless compression of

techical images. It compresses very well.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Fri, 13 May 2011 07:47:05 GMT

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with
my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph
from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I
posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't
look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

Oh and I forgot.. Use PNG format for posting lossless compression of

techical images. It compresses very well.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Fri, 13 May 2011 07:45:29 GMT

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

>>> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

>>> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can

>> have

>> a look at that?

Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with
my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph
from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I
posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't
look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

First, this is not a bmp as I expected.

Second, you never save a two color technical image as jpg. That screws it up

totally.

(You can check the quality of your two color image by trying to fill the

background with a different color. If it leaves spots, its bad.)

Third, it appears that the ulp does not handle details well. Write a new

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Fri, 13 May 2011 01:19:43 GMT

Warren Brayshaw wrote:

Joerg wrote:

>> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

>>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to

>>>> 16. There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in

>>>> there would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not

>>>> good.

>>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we

>>> can have a look at that?

>>>

>> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality

>> with my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random

>> graph from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to

>> 50k so I posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have

>> attached it again.

>> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

>> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

>> --

>> Regards, Joerg

>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Hi Joerg

The import.bmp ULP was built as a middle solution. It is a tool to get a
representaion of your bitmap into a layer which you then trace over using
polygons etc. as descibed in the opening dialog of the ULP . Some people do
use it as a final solution and create logos for their board designs using
the thousands of rectangles that now make up the image. By tracing over
polygons etc. the number of objects is significantly reduced and thus the
molasses effect disappears. In cases like yours it is impractical to craft
so many polygons so this confirms this is not the tool for the job. I
believe it is possible that a second ULP could convert these rectangle
areas into a smaller number of polygons. Maybe this has been already done by
someone and they would care to offer it up.

I think in general this would be practical. Not so much for my case but

if people want to include analyzer or scope plots in a schematic for

illustration. For example, for educational purposes.

You have not said explicitly whether you have the original schematic as an
eagle schematic, anyway I feel I would not try your approach with a
schematic. I would for a board layout to replicate track and positioning
when cloning a design.

In this case it was the usual: A bitmap lifted off of a PDF. I could

have gotten it in Altium as well but that wouldn't have helped because I

only have a viewer for that.

Anyhow, I just wanted to see whether Eagle could do this stuff. Seems

like it can't (yet). So I'll keep doing it in MS-Paint. Works but sure

doesn't feel high-tech

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Fri, 13 May 2011 01:19:43 GMT

Warren Brayshaw wrote:

Joerg wrote:

>> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

>>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to

>>>> 16. There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in

>>>> there would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not

>>>> good.

>>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we

>>> can have a look at that?

>>>

>> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality

>> with my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random

>> graph from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to

>> 50k so I posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have

>> attached it again.

>> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

>> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

>> --

>> Regards, Joerg

>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Hi Joerg

The import.bmp ULP was built as a middle solution. It is a tool to get a
representaion of your bitmap into a layer which you then trace over using
polygons etc. as descibed in the opening dialog of the ULP . Some people do
use it as a final solution and create logos for their board designs using
the thousands of rectangles that now make up the image. By tracing over
polygons etc. the number of objects is significantly reduced and thus the
molasses effect disappears. In cases like yours it is impractical to craft
so many polygons so this confirms this is not the tool for the job. I
believe it is possible that a second ULP could convert these rectangle
areas into a smaller number of polygons. Maybe this has been already done by
someone and they would care to offer it up.

I think in general this would be practical. Not so much for my case but

if people want to include analyzer or scope plots in a schematic for

illustration. For example, for educational purposes.

You have not said explicitly whether you have the original schematic as an
eagle schematic, anyway I feel I would not try your approach with a
schematic. I would for a board layout to replicate track and positioning
when cloning a design.

In this case it was the usual: A bitmap lifted off of a PDF. I could

have gotten it in Altium as well but that wouldn't have helped because I

only have a viewer for that.

Anyhow, I just wanted to see whether Eagle could do this stuff. Seems

like it can't (yet). So I'll keep doing it in MS-Paint. Works but sure

doesn't feel high-tech

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Thu, 12 May 2011 21:37:58 GMT

Joerg wrote:

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to

>>> 16. There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in

>>> there would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not

>>> good.

>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we

>> can have a look at that?

Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality
with my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random
graph from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to
50k so I posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have
attached it again.

I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't
look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Hi Joerg

The import.bmp ULP was built as a middle solution. It is a tool to get a

representaion of your bitmap into a layer which you then trace over using

polygons etc. as descibed in the opening dialog of the ULP . Some people do

use it as a final solution and create logos for their board designs using

the thousands of rectangles that now make up the image. By tracing over

polygons etc. the number of objects is significantly reduced and thus the

molasses effect disappears. In cases like yours it is impractical to craft

so many polygons so this confirms this is not the tool for the job. I

believe it is possible that a second ULP could convert these rectangle

areas into a smaller number of polygons. Maybe this has been already done by

someone and they would care to offer it up.

You have not said explicitly whether you have the original schematic as an

eagle schematic, anyway I feel I would not try your approach with a

schematic. I would for a board layout to replicate track and positioning

when cloning a design.

Warren

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Thu, 12 May 2011 20:46:19 GMT

On 5/11/2011 9:17 AM, James Morrison wrote:

Joerg wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 10:24

>>> I hope in EAGLE 6 they allow for pasting in real images like a

>>> word

>>> document. In the schematic it should be easy enough I would think.

>>> It's a

>>> great way to document things like boot mode resistor settings and

>>> other

>>> configurations. In other tools I'll copy a section right out of

>>> the

>>> datasheet and paste it right into the schematic--nice and quick and

>>> no

>>> typos. You can also paste in any other information to help

>>> document the

>>> design.

>> Absolutely. Maybe you remember TV set schematics from the good old

>> days?

>> They had dozens of oscilloscope plots in there, often in the form of

>> photos because back then no (affordable) computers existed. These

>> "mini

>> plots" told the reader of the schematic what to look for, how the

>> signals had to be. Very effective for the diagnosis of a faulty set.

There are lots of ways you could paste in diagrams, charts, datasheet
snippets, block diagrams, ... that would all help document the design.

Quote:

>>> In the board editor, I can see it being a bit more complicated.

>>> But I'm

>>> sure they could make a special layer for this that doesn't have any

>>> real

>>> electrical use. Maybe the CAM processor just ignores these

>>> objects. It

>>> would be useful for the same reasons and more.

>>>

>> In a layout I wouldn't really know what it'd be good for. I do the

>> same

>> kind of reviewing with layouts. But there I just import a chunk of the

>> Gerbers into, ahem, MS-Paint. Then lots of delete, copy, paste and now

>> the client or layouter has instructions how to re-route stuff so they

>> pass EMC this time.

Images I would paste into a PCB:
1) datasheet snippets (text and images) that discuss layout issues and
recommendations
2) mechanical drawings
3) stackup diagrams, e.g. screen shot from HyperLynx
4) connector pinout diagrams from design specs

That is just off the top of my head.

I think one of the most frustrating things to me is CadSoft seems to
consider documentation to not be part of the design. To me, this sort of
documentation is as much a part of a successful design as the actual traces
and vias. This is especially true when more than one person works on the
design.

With Altium changing their strategy and seemingly trying to become a higher
and higher level design tool, it seems to be that the value CAD market is
ripe for domination by EAGLE.

And the sad part is, most of these features that everyone uses and EAGLE
can do, it just doesn't do very well or doesn't do it out of the box,
wouldn't take very long to integrate in properly and improve the newbie
experience by a big percentage.

Then there are the more advanced features like heirarchy and differential
routing which pushes CadSoft into the more professional tool arena.

By doing these things, I would think that EAGLE would start taking a big
amount of market share from others. When a lifetime license is less than a
one year service contract, who can argue. Very few companies need the big,
vertical toolsets. Some do, most don't.

Cheers,

James.

Some very good points here James, IMHO...

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Thu, 12 May 2011 16:05:48 GMT

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

>> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

>> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can have
a look at that?

Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Thu, 12 May 2011 07:27:02 GMT

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.
There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there
would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can have

a look at that?

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 17:26:21 GMT

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iq1e4i$9su$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

>> This is not at all urgent but maybe someone has an idea. Yesterday I had

>> a situation that happens a lot. I received a schematic that was in need

>> of some minor redesign. Only in PDF, like usual. So this time I wanted

>> to see if Eagle can do the redlines by importing a black&white bitmap

>> snapshot out of the PDF file. Then I wanted to draw the extra stuff in

>> red.

>> Long story short in a graphics program the bitmap looked crisp and

>> clear. After importing it into an Eagle schematics window it was all

>> blurry like I had ten beers and with a bright yellow background. Useless

>> for any redline work, so I did it as usual with a red pen and my

>> scanner. Why is that rendering so badly in Eagle?

After reading all your stuff here it appears like you dont have two color
bitmap.
Here is a windows guide how to get that:
-open the pdf (or whatever doc)
-resize it to requested size
-with window in focus, press ALT+PrintScrn keys on keyboard (window grab to
paste buffer)
-run mspaint (std windows app)
-Paste the image here (press CTRL+v)
-The whole image is now selected and you may drag the interesting part to
upper left corner
-crop image by finding the right and bottom image handles and drag them in
-(you may want to do a temporary save here now)
-Goto Image->Atributes and pick b/w (this may distort edges if the image of
the pfd was jpg compressed)
-clean it up
-Save it as monochrome bitmap

That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

So now I reduced it to stricly B/W, no color, no gray scale. Still not

very good. According to several folks in this thread it seems Eagle just

isn't made to do this. No problem, I just thought it would have been

nice if it could do such reviewer edits.

Oh well, next time it's going to have to be directly done in MS-Paint

then. In case anyone is interested here, you need to load a 2nd instance

of MS-Paint and have the symbols on that one. Like this:

http://www.eham.net/articles/7255?ehamsid=8433m8oku8evctrhqgokh61pg7

One way to generate the symbols would be to place all the ones you'll

need on a blank Eagle schematic and then export that as a graphics file,

in a format that MS-Paint can read.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.

Use another domain or send PM.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 16:49:16 GMT

James Morrison wrote:

Joerg wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 10:24

>>> In the board editor, I can see it being a bit more complicated.

>>> But I'm

>>> sure they could make a special layer for this that doesn't have any

>>> real

>>> electrical use. Maybe the CAM processor just ignores these

>>> objects. It

>>> would be useful for the same reasons and more.

>>>

>> In a layout I wouldn't really know what it'd be good for. I do the

>> same

>> kind of reviewing with layouts. But there I just import a chunk of the

>> Gerbers into, ahem, MS-Paint. Then lots of delete, copy, paste and now

>> the client or layouter has instructions how to re-route stuff so they

>> pass EMC this time.

Images I would paste into a PCB:
1) datasheet snippets (text and images) that discuss layout issues and
recommendations
2) mechanical drawings
3) stackup diagrams, e.g. screen shot from HyperLynx
4) connector pinout diagrams from design specs

That is just off the top of my head.

Ok, that's a bit unusual to me but then again I don't do layouts.

I think one of the most frustrating things to me is CadSoft seems to
consider documentation to not be part of the design. To me, this sort of
documentation is as much a part of a successful design as the actual traces
and vias. This is especially true when more than one person works on the
design.

Back since the days of Orcad-SDT I have a strict rule that still

applies: When I start a design I never start in the schematic editor but

always with Word document. All pertinent information from the client

goes in there first, becoming chapter 1 or the spec. Then as ideas come

up text and schematics are developed concurrently, including

explanations why I used an I/Q mixer over yonder and not a filter

approach, stuff like that. So if I get hit by a falling meteorite

someone else can pick it up right from there.

With Altium changing their strategy and seemingly trying to become a higher
and higher level design tool, it seems to be that the value CAD market is
ripe for domination by EAGLE.

Their move to China didn't instill much confidence in me.

And the sad part is, most of these features that everyone uses and EAGLE
can do, it just doesn't do very well or doesn't do it out of the box,
wouldn't take very long to integrate in properly and improve the newbie
experience by a big percentage.

Then there are the more advanced features like heirarchy and differential
routing which pushes CadSoft into the more professional tool arena.

I never understood why the hierarchy was pushed out as "not so

important". Until a week ago I worked with a schematic of over 50 pages.

Without a hierarchy that would have been over 150 pages. I see no way a

project of that magnitude could be handled with the current versions of

Eagle.

By doing these things, I would think that EAGLE would start taking a big
amount of market share from others. When a lifetime license is less than a
one year service contract, who can argue. Very few companies need the big,
vertical toolsets. Some do, most don't.

Integrated is nice, for example I cannot simulate from within Eagle and

I've had a couple of cases where schematic transcription errors snuck

in. Then again Orcad-PSpice which is fully integrated crashed on me so

many times the last couple of months that I really don't want that to be

my main CAD tool.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 16:17:43 GMT

Joerg wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 10:24

I hope in EAGLE 6 they allow for pasting in real images like a
word
document. In the schematic it should be easy enough I would think.
It's a
great way to document things like boot mode resistor settings and
other
configurations. In other tools I'll copy a section right out of
the
datasheet and paste it right into the schematic--nice and quick and
no
typos. You can also paste in any other information to help
document the
design.

Absolutely. Maybe you remember TV set schematics from the good old
days?
They had dozens of oscilloscope plots in there, often in the form of
photos because back then no (affordable) computers existed. These
"mini
plots" told the reader of the schematic what to look for, how the
signals had to be. Very effective for the diagnosis of a faulty set.

There are lots of ways you could paste in diagrams, charts, datasheet

snippets, block diagrams, ... that would all help document the design.

Quote:

In the board editor, I can see it being a bit more complicated.
But I'm
sure they could make a special layer for this that doesn't have any
real
electrical use. Maybe the CAM processor just ignores these
objects. It
would be useful for the same reasons and more.

In a layout I wouldn't really know what it'd be good for. I do the
same
kind of reviewing with layouts. But there I just import a chunk of the
Gerbers into, ahem, MS-Paint. Then lots of delete, copy, paste and now
the client or layouter has instructions how to re-route stuff so they
pass EMC this time.

Images I would paste into a PCB:

1) datasheet snippets (text and images) that discuss layout issues and

recommendations

2) mechanical drawings

3) stackup diagrams, e.g. screen shot from HyperLynx

4) connector pinout diagrams from design specs

That is just off the top of my head.

I think one of the most frustrating things to me is CadSoft seems to

consider documentation to not be part of the design. To me, this sort of

documentation is as much a part of a successful design as the actual traces

and vias. This is especially true when more than one person works on the

design.

With Altium changing their strategy and seemingly trying to become a higher

and higher level design tool, it seems to be that the value CAD market is

ripe for domination by EAGLE.

And the sad part is, most of these features that everyone uses and EAGLE

can do, it just doesn't do very well or doesn't do it out of the box,

wouldn't take very long to integrate in properly and improve the newbie

experience by a big percentage.

Then there are the more advanced features like heirarchy and differential

routing which pushes CadSoft into the more professional tool arena.

By doing these things, I would think that EAGLE would start taking a big

amount of market share from others. When a lifetime license is less than a

one year service contract, who can argue. Very few companies need the big,

vertical toolsets. Some do, most don't.

Cheers,

James.

James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital

Specializing in CadSoft EAGLE

Online Sales to North America
Electronic Design Services
EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca. Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 14:24:18 GMT

James Morrison wrote:

Joerg wrote on Tue, 10 May 2011 20:26

>>> It's not perfect and not real polished. But it will work--I've

>>> done it for

>>> a bunch of different logos.

>>>

>> For logos I can imagine it'll work. But for schematic work the

>> imported

>> (and converted) bitmap makes it way too slow to be useful. So here I

>> thought I had found a really wacky use for Eagle but fell on my behind

I hope in EAGLE 6 they allow for pasting in real images like a word
document. In the schematic it should be easy enough I would think. It's a
great way to document things like boot mode resistor settings and other
configurations. In other tools I'll copy a section right out of the
datasheet and paste it right into the schematic--nice and quick and no
typos. You can also paste in any other information to help document the
design.

Absolutely. Maybe you remember TV set schematics from the good old days?

They had dozens of oscilloscope plots in there, often in the form of

photos because back then no (affordable) computers existed. These "mini

plots" told the reader of the schematic what to look for, how the

signals had to be. Very effective for the diagnosis of a faulty set.

Seems the only way to do that with Eagle is to finish the schematic,

export to a graphics format, load it into some photo shop type

application and add the pics there.

Would be nice if V6 was a bit better in the graphics import features but

it's only a "nice to have", not so essential. Hierarchy is much more

important, that can really help Eagle move more into the mainstream. It

won't stand a chance without, IMHO.

In the board editor, I can see it being a bit more complicated. But I'm
sure they could make a special layer for this that doesn't have any real
electrical use. Maybe the CAM processor just ignores these objects. It
would be useful for the same reasons and more.

In a layout I wouldn't really know what it'd be good for. I do the same

kind of reviewing with layouts. But there I just import a chunk of the

Gerbers into, ahem, MS-Paint. Then lots of delete, copy, paste and now

the client or layouter has instructions how to re-route stuff so they

pass EMC this time.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 13:38:42 GMT

"Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:iq1e4i$9su$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

This is not at all urgent but maybe someone has an idea. Yesterday I had
a situation that happens a lot. I received a schematic that was in need
of some minor redesign. Only in PDF, like usual. So this time I wanted
to see if Eagle can do the redlines by importing a black&white bitmap
snapshot out of the PDF file. Then I wanted to draw the extra stuff in
red.

Long story short in a graphics program the bitmap looked crisp and
clear. After importing it into an Eagle schematics window it was all
blurry like I had ten beers and with a bright yellow background. Useless
for any redline work, so I did it as usual with a red pen and my
scanner. Why is that rendering so badly in Eagle?

After reading all your stuff here it appears like you dont have two color

bitmap.

Here is a windows guide how to get that:

-open the pdf (or whatever doc)

-resize it to requested size

-with window in focus, press ALT+PrintScrn keys on keyboard (window grab to

paste buffer)

-run mspaint (std windows app)

-Paste the image here (press CTRL+v)

-The whole image is now selected and you may drag the interesting part to

upper left corner

-crop image by finding the right and bottom image handles and drag them in

-(you may want to do a temporary save here now)

-Goto Image->Atributes and pick b/w (this may distort edges if the image of

the pfd was jpg compressed)

-clean it up

-Save it as monochrome bitmap

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 06:47:22 GMT

Joerg schrieb:

Slowly I get the impression this isn't such a useful thing for the
purpose I want it for, at least not with Eagle. What I planned was this:
Receive PDF schematics from a client. Snapshot large sections out of
those, place in Eagle, delete stuff, draw some new stuff in there so
their circuit will work alright, print to PDF and send back.

Yes, this is exactly not what it's for.

Tilmann

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 03:39:44 GMT

Joerg wrote on Tue, 10 May 2011 20:26

It's not perfect and not real polished. But it will work--I've
done it for
a bunch of different logos.

For logos I can imagine it'll work. But for schematic work the
imported
(and converted) bitmap makes it way too slow to be useful. So here I
thought I had found a really wacky use for Eagle but fell on my behind

I hope in EAGLE 6 they allow for pasting in real images like a word

document. In the schematic it should be easy enough I would think. It's a

great way to document things like boot mode resistor settings and other

configurations. In other tools I'll copy a section right out of the

datasheet and paste it right into the schematic--nice and quick and no

typos. You can also paste in any other information to help document the

design.

In the board editor, I can see it being a bit more complicated. But I'm

sure they could make a special layer for this that doesn't have any real

electrical use. Maybe the CAM processor just ignores these objects. It

would be useful for the same reasons and more.

Cheers,

James.

James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital

Specializing in CadSoft EAGLE

Online Sales to North America
Electronic Design Services
EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca. Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 00:26:11 GMT

James Morrison wrote:

Joerg wrote on Tue, 10 May 2011 15:14

>> Tilmann Reh wrote:

>> Wish I knew how. The other thing that happens is that rendering in

>> Eagle

>> becomes very slow after import.

>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Hi Joerg,

The reason EAGLE becomes slower is because the bitmap import is creating a
small rectangle for every pixel (or number of pixels, depending on scale
factor you selected). The idea is that you then use that as a guide and
draw bigger objects (like one rectangle for 100's of the little pixels) on
the layers you want (like tplace typically). Then delete all the objects
on the importing layers used.

Yeah, it ain't useful for what I was planning to do, marking up other

people's schematics taken by snapshot out of PDF.

It's not perfect and not real polished. But it will work--I've done it for
a bunch of different logos.

For logos I can imagine it'll work. But for schematic work the imported

(and converted) bitmap makes it way too slow to be useful. So here I

thought I had found a really wacky use for Eagle but fell on my behind

Guess I'll keep buying red pens and white-out then. Some day they may

not even carry white-out because nobody uses typewriters anymore.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.

Use another domain or send PM.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Wed, 11 May 2011 00:19:45 GMT

Warren Brayshaw wrote:

Joerg wrote:

>> Tilmann Reh wrote:

>>> Joerg schrieb:

>>>

>>>> AFAIK Eagle will only take a bitmap. The background was white but

>>>> after importing into Eagle it turned bright yellow. That would be

>>>> ok (sort of) but the resolution was greatly reduced and so bad that

>>>> I had to do this sketch job by hand again.

>>> I don't understand your problem. Of course, EAGLE can take only

>>> "binary" pixels, no color shades, and the color it displays is the

>>> color assigned to the particular layer. There also is no background

>>> color.

>>>

>> Hmm, the import-bmp.ulp just asked me to reduce the number of colors

>> to 32 or something like that, so I did.

>>> So it's pretty obvious you need a true b/w image and convert that by

>>> on of the available programs. The result are rectangles in the given

>>> layer, representing single pixels resp. pixel lines of your image.

>>> The pixel/rectangle size is provided to the converter as a

>>> parameter. It's a simple 1:1 conversion, and in EAGLE the result

>>> looks /exactly/ identical to the bitmap source.

>>>

>> Ok, so now I took a graph from the BC857 datasheet (source: NXP) and

>> reduced the grayscale to pure black and white. Looks less nice after

>> that and won't work for all cases but ok, man's gotta do what man's

>> gotta do. The result is attached. This time it turned green

>> I had cut cut out little pieces and reduce the JPEG because the

>> Cadsoft server limits post sizes. But the green and the white stripes

>> still show, also the poor quality of the graph. Result is in the next

>> post (hopefully ...)

>>> BTDT.

>>>

>> Wish I knew how. The other thing that happens is that rendering in

>> Eagle becomes very slow after import.

Joerg
I believe your expectations are different to the way the ULP presents its
results.
Here are some points to assist you. To get it clear in your mind, practice
with a monochrome bit image.

A monochrome image has one (1) colour, black. The other colour (white) is
'background' so when you are asked to select colors, only select the black.

Aha! Thanks, that did it. Still not pretty but loads.

The background colour will be that of the editor.
For each colour imported the ULP creates a layer and assigns a colour to it.
For a monochrome image with one colour selected you get one new layer. In
your case you selected two, the second being the green/yellow you see.
Import a six colour image and you will get six new layers. By default they
are layers 200 and up.

Image choice is important. Ensure there is no anti-aliasing, like your BC857
example. This creates a number of greys which will all get their own layer.

I chopped grayscale in the file, so color it completely binary, only two

states.

As mentioned by others. The pixels of your image are changed to rectangle
objects. The foggy look is a mix of the rectangles, the layer's fill pattern
and the resolution of your source image.

Slowly I get the impression this isn't such a useful thing for the

purpose I want it for, at least not with Eagle. What I planned was this:

Receive PDF schematics from a client. Snapshot large sections out of

those, place in Eagle, delete stuff, draw some new stuff in there so

their circuit will work alright, print to PDF and send back.

Sad thing is, PDF is often already vector graphics. But not after using

snapshot, and probably Eagle could not import foreign vector graphics

anyhow.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.

Use another domain or send PM.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Tue, 10 May 2011 21:40:11 GMT

Joerg wrote on Tue, 10 May 2011 15:14

Tilmann Reh wrote:
Wish I knew how. The other thing that happens is that rendering in
Eagle
becomes very slow after import.
http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Hi Joerg,

The reason EAGLE becomes slower is because the bitmap import is creating a

small rectangle for every pixel (or number of pixels, depending on scale

factor you selected). The idea is that you then use that as a guide and

draw bigger objects (like one rectangle for 100's of the little pixels) on

the layers you want (like tplace typically). Then delete all the objects

on the importing layers used.

It's not perfect and not real polished. But it will work--I've done it for

a bunch of different logos.

Good luck.

James.

James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital

Specializing in CadSoft EAGLE

Online Sales to North America
Electronic Design Services
EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca. Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Tue, 10 May 2011 20:20:03 GMT

Joerg wrote:

Tilmann Reh wrote:

>> Joerg schrieb:

>>> AFAIK Eagle will only take a bitmap. The background was white but

>>> after importing into Eagle it turned bright yellow. That would be

>>> ok (sort of) but the resolution was greatly reduced and so bad that

>>> I had to do this sketch job by hand again.

>> I don't understand your problem. Of course, EAGLE can take only

>> "binary" pixels, no color shades, and the color it displays is the

>> color assigned to the particular layer. There also is no background

>> color.

Hmm, the import-bmp.ulp just asked me to reduce the number of colors
to 32 or something like that, so I did.

>> So it's pretty obvious you need a true b/w image and convert that by

>> on of the available programs. The result are rectangles in the given

>> layer, representing single pixels resp. pixel lines of your image.

>> The pixel/rectangle size is provided to the converter as a

>> parameter. It's a simple 1:1 conversion, and in EAGLE the result

>> looks /exactly/ identical to the bitmap source.

Ok, so now I took a graph from the BC857 datasheet (source: NXP) and
reduced the grayscale to pure black and white. Looks less nice after
that and won't work for all cases but ok, man's gotta do what man's
gotta do. The result is attached. This time it turned green

I had cut cut out little pieces and reduce the JPEG because the
Cadsoft server limits post sizes. But the green and the white stripes
still show, also the poor quality of the graph. Result is in the next
post (hopefully ...)

>> BTDT.

Wish I knew how. The other thing that happens is that rendering in
Eagle becomes very slow after import.

Joerg

I believe your expectations are different to the way the ULP presents its

results.

Here are some points to assist you. To get it clear in your mind, practice

with a monochrome bit image.

A monochrome image has one (1) colour, black. The other colour (white) is

'background' so when you are asked to select colors, only select the black.

The background colour will be that of the editor.

For each colour imported the ULP creates a layer and assigns a colour to it.

For a monochrome image with one colour selected you get one new layer. In

your case you selected two, the second being the green/yellow you see.

Import a six colour image and you will get six new layers. By default they

are layers 200 and up.

Image choice is important. Ensure there is no anti-aliasing, like your BC857

example. This creates a number of greys which will all get their own layer.

As mentioned by others. The pixels of your image are changed to rectangle

objects. The foggy look is a mix of the rectangles, the layer's fill pattern

and the resolution of your source image.

Hope this helps

Warren

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Tue, 10 May 2011 19:16:58 GMT

Result file

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Tue, 10 May 2011 19:14:53 GMT

Tilmann Reh wrote:

Joerg schrieb:

>> AFAIK Eagle will only take a bitmap. The background was white but after

>> importing into Eagle it turned bright yellow. That would be ok (sort of)

>> but the resolution was greatly reduced and so bad that I had to do this

>> sketch job by hand again.

I don't understand your problem. Of course, EAGLE can take only "binary"
pixels, no color shades, and the color it displays is the color assigned
to the particular layer. There also is no background color.

Hmm, the import-bmp.ulp just asked me to reduce the number of colors to

32 or something like that, so I did.

So it's pretty obvious you need a true b/w image and convert that by on
of the available programs. The result are rectangles in the given layer,
representing single pixels resp. pixel lines of your image. The
pixel/rectangle size is provided to the converter as a parameter. It's a
simple 1:1 conversion, and in EAGLE the result looks /exactly/ identical
to the bitmap source.

Ok, so now I took a graph from the BC857 datasheet (source: NXP) and

reduced the grayscale to pure black and white. Looks less nice after

that and won't work for all cases but ok, man's gotta do what man's

gotta do. The result is attached. This time it turned green

I had cut cut out little pieces and reduce the JPEG because the Cadsoft

server limits post sizes. But the green and the white stripes still

show, also the poor quality of the graph. Result is in the next post

(hopefully ...)

BTDT.

Wish I knew how. The other thing that happens is that rendering in Eagle

becomes very slow after import.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

RE: Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor — Tue, 10 May 2011 06:53:41 GMT

Joerg schrieb:

AFAIK Eagle will only take a bitmap. The background was white but after
importing into Eagle it turned bright yellow. That would be ok (sort of)
but the resolution was greatly reduced and so bad that I had to do this
sketch job by hand again.

I don't understand your problem. Of course, EAGLE can take only "binary"

pixels, no color shades, and the color it displays is the color assigned

to the particular layer. There also is no background color.

So it's pretty obvious you need a true b/w image and convert that by one

of the available programs. The result are rectangles in the given layer,

representing single pixels resp. pixel lines of your image. The

pixel/rectangle size is provided to the converter as a parameter. It's a

simple 1:1 conversion, and in EAGLE the result looks /exactly/ identical

to the bitmap source.

BTDT.

Tilmann