Is anyone at AutoDesk listening?

Paul Badger wrote:

From an interview at Adafruit

"Yes it does really take three or four clicks to do what you expect to

be accomplished in one or two clicks"

If you insist on doing everything with only the mouse you are right.

But set up some hotkeys for activating the commands you use most and

use the mouse only to select the object to apply it to and your work

flow gets even faster than the click optimized UI you seem to imagine.

--

Lorenz

On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 07:16:09 +0000

Lorenz <lorenznl@yahoo.com> wrote:

If you insist on doing everything with only the mouse you are right.

I'm so glad you said that.

I for one would be happy to do things with the keyboard.

I loved the DOS OrCAD schematics editor back in the early '80s where

you could do everything with the keyboard. If you had a mouse, you could

use that but if you didn't, you could still do everything with ease.

When I say 'with ease' I mean 'usually with a small fraction of the

effort you need to do the same thing with Eagle'. Auto increment and

auto offset repeat. Record and replay. Hierarchical schematics (yes, I

know, Eagle 7 has that - but OrCAD had it 30 years ago).

I'd really be happy if Eagle would consider implementing some of those

features. Probably not overly complex, considering that at that time a

mainstream PC had 512K RAM, 5M HD and a 33MHz processor and it all fit

in that...

--

Zoltán Kócsi

Bendor Research Pty. Ltd.

I'm all for hot keys, it still doesn't forgive the fact that to delete a group of objects I
1) Have to think about how to do it

2) Select the delete tool - maybe by hot key

3) Have to select the group tool - maybe by hot key

4) Lasso the objects

5) Have to hold the command key down (on a Mac)

6) Have to click - or fuss with the contextual menu and the right mouse button, arguably step 7

Most other software

1) Lasso the objects

2) Hit delete key

If this were implemented would "long time users" miss the above chain of commands - even if committed to hot keys or muscle memory?

Paul Badger wrote on Sat, 12 November 2016 15:58

I'm all for hot keys, it still doesn't forgive the fact that to delete

a group of objects I

1) Have to think about how to do it

2) Select the delete tool - maybe by hot key

3) Have to select the group tool

4) Have to hold the command key down

5) Have to click

 

Most other software

1) Lasso the objects

2) Hit delete key

 

--

To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:

https://www.element14.com/community/message/209342

Hello Paul,

There is a reason that the EAGLE GUI acts the way it does.  If you can

understand the EAGLE philosophy then you can become quite efficient.  I

currently use Altium most right now and while it is a great tool and can do

many, many things there are some fundamental things that are just more

efficient in EAGLE.

EAGLE's primary modus operandi is to select the function and then apply

that function to object after object.  This is counter-intuitive to modern

day OS's that primarily do the opposite:  select and object (think

right-click in file explore) and then select the function.

If you can understand that and start to think like that then EAGLE becomes

very efficient.  Like everything else, EAGLE's greatest strength is also

its greatest weakness as this is not intuitive given modern day OS's

generally behave in the opposite manner.

So thinking this way it becomes obvious that to move a group of objects one

would:

- select the group function

- apply that to many object

- select the move function

- apply that to the group previously defined

But as you state, this is not the normal way to do things and causes new

users especially great angst.  I have suggested in the past that EAGLE

institute an implicit group function when a user drags a rectangle or

polygon around objects without a function selected.  And an implicit move

command when you left-click and drag an object or right-click and drag a

group.  Doing this doesn't have to break the current, efficient, way of

doing things but at the same time makes it easier for newer users to at

least not get frustrated and stick with EAGLE long enough to understand

that there is an even better way to do things.

Cheers,

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

Order your EAGLE license from Stratford Digital at

http://www.eaglelicenses.com

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Paul Badger wrote on Sat, 12 November 2016 10:58

1) Have to think about how to do it

That's on you.  As with any complicated tool, you have to learn to use it

properly.  Once you do, you don't have to think about it.  I could say the

same thing about your reverse way of doing it.

Quote:

Most other software

1) Lasso the objects

2) Hit delete key

In eagle:

1) group

2) Lasso the objects

3) Hit delete key

However, the real power of the modal interface becomes apparent when you

want to perform the same operation on multiple things.  To delete more

objects in Eagle, you just click on the additional objects.  This is very

handy for actions like move, delete, setting values, etc.

No, we don't want Eagle to be different.  Learn the tool before complaining

about it.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at http:
www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Anybody complaining about the usability of EAGLE should think themselves lucky they don't have to put up with other high end tools and be fleeced thousands of pounds annually for the privilege.

Just read the manual and follow a few tutorials and after a short while its really quite simple to use. That doesn't mean that there aren't improvements to be made in the usability of the UI, there are, but it certainly doesn't need completely changing.

On 11/11/2016 12:14 PM, Paul Badger wrote:

As I an educator and EagleCad user for the last five years (and author of some ULPs that add missing functionality to EagleCad) I would like to put in my vote for junking the "quirky" EagleCad interface for one that echoes the way the ENTIRETY OF OTHER GRAPHIC AND DESIGN SOFTWARE works. Old timers will quickly get used to using the mouse the way the rest of the world, and the rest of the their software does. New-comers will not have to read slightly ridiculous tutorials that explain how to work your way around a truly inadequate UI.

Wow... there's a couple of subjective observations.  Quirky? ENTIRETY OF

OTHER GRAPHIC AND DESIGN SOFTWARE? Ridiculous tutorials? Truly

inadequate UI?

Certainly you have facts to back these claims?

As an educator I always have to preface my comments to students with statements like "you have probably never used software this clunky before" and "Yes the mouse works differently than all your other software" and "Yes it does really take three or four clicks to do what you expect to be accomplished in one or two clicks" and "No there is no easy way to align objects, etc, etc"

I would think that an educator would be more interested in actually

teaching students the software rather than opining on it.  Perhaps

taking a different approach to your preface would prove to have more

positive results.  Such as...  "Good morning students.  I would like to

introduce to you some CAD software that features a slightly different

user interface.  Once you learn this, it will make more sense to you and

you'll be more efficient with your work."

Of course, that would mean that you'd have to give up your

predisposition to the status quo.  But it'd be worth an honest try.

I and many others have documented Eagle's UI inadequacies for years, many of the missing things should be easy to fix, and users have fixed them for years with ULPs of their own,

so implementing this functionality should be quick and easy. If you wish to see lists of bugs or missing functionality I'll gladly provide my own suggestions. if you search the internet, you can see this material going back years, things like "favorite Eagle bug contest"

Have you done the same for other software, oh, say... perhaps Windows?

Inventor?  Pro/E? Altium?

As to the mouse question, while a few old-times may complain, using the mouse in a more standard way will quickly grow on them, as they realize that things are "just easier now" and they're  not missing the four extra mouse clicks.

There are several things wrong with this approach.  First of all, the

concept of keeping up with the Jones's is not necessarily a good thing.

One of the key features of Eagle that makes it attractive as a tool is

the fact that it has a command line interface.  The standard UI to which

you refer is drifting off into an area that's suitable only for the

casual desktop user whose biggest concern is how to make a sentence bold

in a word processor - i.e. for the masses.  By sheer numbers they tend

to drive the UI development through market studies.

This is fine, as long as you're a casual desktop user.  But as an

engineer, the "standard UI" is not necessarily the best approach.  I

have found that Eagle's prefix notation (verb first, then object,

object, object... ) is far more efficient than a postfix notation where

one picks an object, then does something to it.

As for use of the term "old timers", you're discarding decades of

experience for no reason.  Perhaps the testimony provided by this

experience doesn't promote your goal.

All in all, a user interface is certainly subjective, including my

perhaps heated observations above.  All software can't be all things to

all users.  Thus, when choosing software, one must consider the UI.  One

of the reasons I chose Eagle for my company is precisely because of its

user interface.  Its prefix notation and command line interface were

what brought it to the top of the short list of ECAD software.  It's

availability on Linux sealed the deal.  The license was icing on the cake!

I would no more ask Cadsoft to make Eagle behave more like Windoze or

Mac than I would ask Microsoft to make Windows behave more like Eagle.

Enjoy,

    - Chuck

On 11/11/2016 12:14 PM, Paul Badger wrote:

As I an educator and EagleCad user for the last five years (and author of some ULPs that add missing functionality to EagleCad) I would like to put in my vote for junking the "quirky" EagleCad interface for one that echoes the way the ENTIRETY OF OTHER GRAPHIC AND DESIGN SOFTWARE works. Old timers will quickly get used to using the mouse the way the rest of the world, and the rest of the their software does. New-comers will not have to read slightly ridiculous tutorials that explain how to work your way around a truly inadequate UI.

Wow... there's a couple of subjective observations.  Quirky? ENTIRETY OF

OTHER GRAPHIC AND DESIGN SOFTWARE? Ridiculous tutorials? Truly

inadequate UI?

Certainly you have facts to back these claims?

As an educator I always have to preface my comments to students with statements like "you have probably never used software this clunky before" and "Yes the mouse works differently than all your other software" and "Yes it does really take three or four clicks to do what you expect to be accomplished in one or two clicks" and "No there is no easy way to align objects, etc, etc"

I would think that an educator would be more interested in actually

teaching students the software rather than opining on it.  Perhaps

taking a different approach to your preface would prove to have more

positive results.  Such as...  "Good morning students.  I would like to

introduce to you some CAD software that features a slightly different

user interface.  Once you learn this, it will make more sense to you and

you'll be more efficient with your work."

Of course, that would mean that you'd have to give up your

predisposition to the status quo.  But it'd be worth an honest try.

I and many others have documented Eagle's UI inadequacies for years, many of the missing things should be easy to fix, and users have fixed them for years with ULPs of their own,

so implementing this functionality should be quick and easy. If you wish to see lists of bugs or missing functionality I'll gladly provide my own suggestions. if you search the internet, you can see this material going back years, things like "favorite Eagle bug contest"

Have you done the same for other software, oh, say... perhaps Windows?

Inventor?  Pro/E? Altium?

As to the mouse question, while a few old-times may complain, using the mouse in a more standard way will quickly grow on them, as they realize that things are "just easier now" and they're  not missing the four extra mouse clicks.

There are several things wrong with this approach.  First of all, the

concept of keeping up with the Jones's is not necessarily a good thing.

One of the key features of Eagle that makes it attractive as a tool is

the fact that it has a command line interface.  The standard UI to which

you refer is drifting off into an area that's suitable only for the

casual desktop user whose biggest concern is how to make a sentence bold

in a word processor - i.e. for the masses.  By sheer numbers they tend

to drive the UI development through market studies.

This is fine, as long as you're a casual desktop user.  But as an

engineer, the "standard UI" is not necessarily the best approach.  I

have found that Eagle's prefix notation (verb first, then object,

object, object... ) is far more efficient than a postfix notation where

one picks an object, then does something to it.

As for use of the term "old timers", you're discarding decades of

experience for no reason.  Perhaps the testimony provided by this

experience doesn't promote your goal.

All in all, a user interface is certainly subjective, including my

perhaps heated observations above.  All software can't be all things to

all users.  Thus, when choosing software, one must consider the UI.  One

of the reasons I chose Eagle for my company is precisely because of its

user interface.  Its prefix notation and command line interface were

what brought it to the top of the short list of ECAD software.  It's

availability on Linux sealed the deal.  The license was icing on the cake!

I would no more ask Cadsoft to make Eagle behave more like Windoze or

Mac than I would ask Microsoft to make Windows behave more like Eagle.

Enjoy,

    - Chuck

Hello Paul,

Thank you for your comments. We are monitoring this situation very

closely and looking for the best way forward.

That's all I got for now.

Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia

The fact that I can do almost everything with the keyboard is one of the

reasons I like Eagle.

--

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