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Upcycle IoT Design Challenge
Forum No mains level measurement click boards available?
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Related

No mains level measurement click boards available?

JWx
JWx 1 month ago

Maybe I am bad at searching but it seems that even high-voltage, isolated current/power sensing click boards are limited to below 100V - for example, even something like this:

MIKROELEKTRONIKA MIKROE-3169

described as "PWR Meter click is a power measurement Click boardTm, capable of measuring voltage and current through the load, connected to either AC or DC power source" with MCP39F511A datasheet suggesting 1000:1 input voltage divider has only a 100:1 divider installed and "The power supply should not exceed 50V" comment in the product's page...

I understand - safety, prototyping - but measuring (for example) power factor at secondary winding of mains transformer seems atypical (especially in the context of recycling some old hardware)...

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  • Gough Lui
    Gough Lui 1 month ago +1
    I suspect the small size of the Click board form factor makes it hard to achieve the required high-voltage to low-voltage isolation necessary to ensure safety. Usually high-voltages devices aren't made…
  • misaz
    misaz 1 month ago +1
    Maybe it is also because of regulations. MikroE is Serbia based company and I am not sure if Serbia (or any other Europe country) law allows selling non-completly-insulated mains devices to non-qualified…
  • Gough Lui
    Gough Lui 1 month ago in reply to JWx +1
    For the Click you mentioned - https://www.mikroe.com/pwr-meter-click it would seem the chip is capable. https://download.mikroe.com/documents/add-on-boards/click/pwr-meter/pwr-meter-click-schematic…
  • Gough Lui
    Gough Lui 1 month ago

    I suspect the small size of the Click board form factor makes it hard to achieve the required high-voltage to low-voltage isolation necessary to ensure safety. Usually high-voltages devices aren't made "in-the-open" and marketing them as such may open the creators up to some responsibility if someone were to come to harm.

    If accuracy can be sacrificed, then a transformer isolation would be safest as there's actual insulation separating primary and secondary. But every transformer will have its own magnetic hysteresis errors and the like to deal with.

    If the currents are large enough, especially if they're AC, current transformers or hall-effect sensor current clamps might be the better way to do current measurement. But they're not ideal for low currents ...

    Resistive dividers may be fine for a while, but this is contingent on respecting the resistor's maximum voltage over worst-case spikes in the input (which is why some surge protection in the form of some MOV/GDT might be advisable). Ordinary "small" 0.25W resistors may only have an operating voltage about 200V. Using higher-rated resistors would be advised if you want to go this route. But some simple issues can make your circuit "dangerous" - e.g. if contact with the circuit is made and there are implicit assumptions about it being connected the right way around (with respect to live and neutral) depending on the plug used in your country.

    Assuming you understand the caveats, I suppose one could always design and build their own "oversized" Click board ...

    - Gough

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  • JWx
    JWx 1 month ago in reply to Gough Lui

    yes - some cases can be worked-around using existing parts (with varying hazard level)... What I personally find strange is - for example - earlier mentioned advanced power meter chipset (with four-quadrant measurement), but limited to 50V...

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  • misaz
    misaz 1 month ago

    Maybe it is also because of regulations. MikroE is Serbia based company and I am not sure if Serbia (or any other Europe country) law allows selling non-completly-insulated mains devices to non-qualified technicians (or even to anybody).

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  • JWx
    JWx 1 month ago in reply to misaz

    that may be it - but some boards have  electrical hazard markings (and are limited to 85V - which is considered above safe voltage level). In any way - inconvinient while considering repurposing depreciated stuff :)

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  • Gough Lui
    Gough Lui 1 month ago in reply to JWx

    For the Click you mentioned - https://www.mikroe.com/pwr-meter-click it would seem the chip is capable.

    image

    https://download.mikroe.com/documents/add-on-boards/click/pwr-meter/pwr-meter-click-schematic-v100.pdf

    Seems like the resistances are arranged in series (R11-R13) to improve voltage rating, but they're a bit small compared to the typical application in the Microchip datasheet.

    image

    https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/aemDocuments/documents/OTH/ProductDocuments/DataSheets/MCP39F511A-Data-Sheet-20006044A.pdf

    Perhaps this is the reason the design isn't intended to handle 50V+ but also, I'd hazard to say, the spacing is still quite narrow especially for mains power. Even if you do get the resistors right, the lack of clearance could be problematic.

    Well there is also this one:

    https://www.mikroe.com/pwr-meter-3-click

    Hall for the current, resistive divider for the voltage. I suspect you can get away with higher voltages by changing resistances, but the footprints are probably not ideal for higher voltage resistors.

    - Gough

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  • JWx
    JWx 1 month ago in reply to Gough Lui

    yes - this is the fact I was originally upset: reference design has 1000:1 voltage divider and this click board is configured as 100:1. It really may be mainly safety issue

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