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  • blink led
Related

Flashing Led's

commanderkelly
commanderkelly over 6 years ago

Hello, I am new to this site and loving it. I did a bit of Electronics in 1995 where I made a flashing led circuit with 2 led's and it was cool. My other hobby is model trains and I would like to put 2 small led's in buffer stops and make them flash and run it off a DC train controller. Does anyone have a simple circuit that would do the job for this? I am basically a noob at electronics but I can follow a simple circuit.

 

Thank you.

 

Gary.

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  • 14rhb
    14rhb over 6 years ago +12 suggested
    Hi Gary, Welcome to Element 14 Community. Although a long time ago, you have already completed the first step on the world of modern electronics - the famous 'blinky' experiment . I'm assuming you want…
  • beacon_dave
    beacon_dave over 6 years ago +8 suggested
    Probably can't get much simpler than a flashing LED: https://uk.farnell.com/c/optoelectronics-displays/led-products/flashing-blinking-leds Size may be an issue however. 3mm is the smallest listed.
  • fmilburn
    fmilburn over 6 years ago in reply to 14rhb +7 suggested
    Hi Rod and Gary, I am more of a digital guy but I saw this and had to build it. The circuit is close to the first link that Rod gave above. The voltage source is 4 AAA, R1 and R4 are 330 ohm, R2 and R3…
  • 14rhb
    0 14rhb over 6 years ago in reply to fmilburn

    I thought this circuit's timing was proportional to the C and R only and not supply voltage dependant?

    but thanks to Frank taking the time to experiment, we see timing does vary with supply voltage.

     

    Rod

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  • fmilburn
    0 fmilburn over 6 years ago in reply to 14rhb

    Hi Rod,

     

    I have been playing with it a bit more.  In my experiment it gets faster and dims as the voltage decreases.  Gary's observation is it gets faster as the voltage increases. Does the lower supply voltage in my experiment mean it does not take as much time to charge the capacitor to circuit required capacity and also discharges faster and so speeds things up?  That kind of makes sense (to a mechanical engineer least :-).  I ran it again just now all the way up to 14 V on my bench power supply.  It does not speed up but appears to continue to slow a bit.  So something else appears to be going on for Gary.

     

    Frank

     

    EDIT:  The rapid blinking only occurs at very low voltages in my experiment - the rate does not change so much between 6V and 14V.  Time to break out the simulator...

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  • 14rhb
    0 14rhb over 6 years ago

    To everyone following commanderkelly initial blog, I must admit there are some strange goings on for such a simple circuit image

     

    Like fmilburn I also breadboarded this to see how supply voltage affected the flash rate. I used 2N3804 transistors, 68k + 10uF/25v capacitors, plain old technology LEDs + 560 ohm current limiting resistors. These component values give a decent 1.22 Hz flash rate at 14v DC.

     

    The flash rate did vary, and it increased as the voltage dropped to around that required by the LEDs...as expected. Mid-voltages I saw a flash rate as expected, as seen in the blue plot below. This was based on the following equation:

    frequency      = 1 / (0.38 * R * C)

                          = 1.06Hz image

    But at higher voltages the flash rate started to increase again and I wasn't sure why. I don't think it is to do with the capacitors: for some types of capacitor the capacitance value changes significantly with applied voltage, but that isn't the case for electrolytics. I ran the circuit without the LEDs and measured the frequency on an oscilloscope and it still exhibited this variance in frequency. That leaves the effect down to the transistors.

     

    Focusing on the voltages on the transistor, and specifically the base voltage (which goes negative during switching and the capacitor voltage is maintained but inverts) this reverse biased the base-emitter junction of the transistor....there is a rated value in the specification sheets for that of 6v minimum. I suspect when that is overcome the junction behaves like a Zener diode, something we did not expect. Now the timing will start to vary as we see in the blue plots above. There is a solution though. Adding a simple diode like the 1N4148 in series with the base of both transistors prevents this effect occuring as these diodes now increase that breakdown voltage significantly to approx. 75v.

     

    Plotting the frequency now gives the orange graph above. We can see the circuit behaves poorly at low voltages as it now has to overcome the forward bias of the new diode to start working. But at higher voltages it definately looks much better.

     

    Rod

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  • 14rhb
    0 14rhb over 6 years ago in reply to 14rhb

    ps: there is always an advantage to being awake at 4am image

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  • jc2048
    0 jc2048 over 6 years ago in reply to 14rhb

    Although datasheets always show it as either 5V or 6V, in reality reverse breakdown of the base-emitter junction can be a good bit higher than that - more like 7 or 8V. It's exactly the same effect as a 'zener' diode of more than 3 or 4 volts, merely the reverse breakdown of a pn junction by avalanching. The difference is that with an actual zener it's designed to cope with a certain power level and is properly characterised for voltage. With the transistor, it will start to do damage that will probably affect the transistor properties.

     

    On a 9V battery you can usually get away with it without problems, although technically you are outside the datasheet. With higher voltages, traditionally people used to put diodes in series with the emitters like this

     

    image

     

    That's from Transistor Circuit Design published by the engineering staff of Texas Instruments in 1963.

     

    I'm not sure why that's better than having the diode in series with the base where you'd preserve the output swing. The effect on the timing would be the same. Perhaps there's a snag with doing that that I can't see.

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  • 14rhb
    0 14rhb over 6 years ago in reply to jc2048

    Hi Jon,

     

    Nicely explained and it ties in well with what I was observing. Thank you for providing a diagram, that should help commanderkelly work out where to place the diodes. I'll try moving them in my circuit and re-measuring to see what effect it has.

     

    Rod

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  • commanderkelly
    0 commanderkelly over 6 years ago in reply to jc2048

    Thank you I will try this when I get the diodes.

     

    Gary.

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  • commanderkelly
    0 commanderkelly over 6 years ago

    I want to thank everyone who is helping me with this.

     

    Gary.

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  • jc2048
    0 jc2048 over 6 years ago in reply to 14rhb

    I think I see why it's like that. I'm wrong to say that the effect on the timing would be the same. In the emitter, the diode reduces the voltage that the capacitor charges to by a diode drop and it also reduces the swing at the collector by a diode drop and the two effects then cancel to leave the timing more or less the same. That's not the case if you put the diode in series with the base.

     

    One thing that's complicating things for you and Frank is having the LED as a load. It means the capacitor doesn't charge all the way to the rail, when the transistor is off, and will add an offset to the timing.

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  • commanderkelly
    0 commanderkelly over 6 years ago in reply to jc2048

    Hello Jon,

     

    I'll try what to said when I get some diodes all this info helps me as I am a noob lol. I did make a new video where I change r2 and r3 for a 68k resistor from 47k and it helped some.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXv8IIqkNeU&t=0s&index=3&list=PL-kfiq8mHqQ2-8B3Lid3TlONV2XteJgby

     

    Gary.

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