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Member's Forum SuperCap Sunday - Two Capacitor Paradox
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Related

SuperCap Sunday - Two Capacitor Paradox

scottiebabe
scottiebabe over 1 year ago

The following phenomenon is even more mysterious than KFC’s secret recipe or where do socks go.

When you connect a charged capacitor in parallel to a discharged capacitor of the same capacitance half the stored energy disappears!

image
Source: Wiki

See a full detailed analysis at: en.wikipedia.org/.../Two_capacitor_paradox

I will attempt to demonstrate this behavior using supercaps and some primitive instrumentation.

  • 2x EDLC SuperCapacitor 2.5F 5.5V
  • Adjustable power supply
  • USB power meter
  • 50 Ohm resistor

Here is the test apparatus:

image

The 2 DUT capacitors share a common ground and a toggle switch allows for the positive terminals be isolated or shorted together.

I first measured the charge and energy stored in DUT-A by charging the capacitor to 5 V and then recording the effective output charge and energy when a 50 ohm resistor is used as a test load. I repeated the test a few time to get a vague ideal how repeatable the test setup was. Here is a screenshot of the recorded test runs on my USB power meter.

image

After a few minutes of data entry into excel here are all the test run results.

image

How long the capacitor was charged likely and allow to soak at its test voltage likely lead to some variability in the test. At first I had my power meter stop recorded when the discharge current declined below 10 mA. Later on, I manually terminated the test when the DUT registered less than 1 mA of discharge current into the test load.

Finally the big moment! I charged DUT-A to 5 V and discharged DUT-B to 0 V. Then looking the other direction flipped the toggle switch which placed the 2 DUT capacitors in parallel with a low ohm connection.

No noise, no smoke, no excitement, no welded switch contacts… Somewhat anti-climatic.

I measured the voltage across the now parallel capacitors at 2.881 V. Assuming both capacitors were equal and ideal, the voltage should have declined to 2.5 V (half of the 5 V test stimulus). Capacitor DUT-B likely has a lower effective capacitance compared to that of DUT-A. Testing a second time resulted in final voltage of 2.848 V.

Was the charge of DUT-A conserved? Yes, the measured charge was within the margin of uncertainty of the test setup.

Where’s the energy? The recorded energy of the parallel DUT capacitors is 56% that of the energy that was originally stored in DUT-A prior to being connected to discharged DUT-B.

Where did the energy go!?

Repeating the experiment in the opposite direction, charging DUT-B and connected discharged DUT-A resulted in a final voltage of 2.658 V.

There is lots that could be improved and the voltage coefficient of capacitance of my EDLCs also played role in leaving a little extra energy in the system.

But, I would say its an easy DIY experiment if you want to have some SuperFun.

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Top Replies

  • dang74
    dang74 over 1 year ago +6
    I had never heard of the capacitor paradox. I look forward to your next blog where you use super capacitors to put and end to Schrodinger's cat.
  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago +5
    Scope Shots Probe locations:
  • robogary
    robogary over 1 year ago +4
    I must admit my admiration and tip my hat to you for finding another use of your fav toy, the FNB58 ! You must write a book on 1001 uses for the FNB58
  • javagoza
    javagoza over 1 year ago

    "Ladies and gentlemen, we find ourselves in an extraordinary case, where the theft doesn't involve tangible objects but rather the elusive manipulation of electrical energy. Within the intricate interplay of our very real-life circuits, a clandestine force has emerged—those insidious non-ideal circuit conditions. With unwavering certainty, I, ChatGPT, now unveil the true culprit behind this confounding act of energy manipulation. My exhaustive investigation has delved into both the theoretically perfect circuits and their flawed, real-world counterparts. There is no room for doubt; it is the malevolent influence of these non-ideal circuit conditions that has orchestrated this complex and audacious scheme." by ChatGPT

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  • anniel747
    anniel747 over 1 year ago

    Moving all those super electrons in such small pipes undoubtably causes lots of friction resulting in superheating. Did you measure any boiling retardation? Did you observe some Meissner effect? UnamusedThinkingRolling eyes

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  • robogary
    robogary over 1 year ago

    I must admit my admiration and tip my hat to you for finding another use of your fav toy, the FNB58 !  You must write a book on 1001 uses for the FNB58

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  • baldengineer
    baldengineer over 1 year ago

    I cannot believe in all the talks I've given on capacitors; no one has ever told me about the Capacitor Paradox! This is so cool.

    So, TIL about the capacitor paradox. Thanks!

    Great job building the board and documenting the results.

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  • dang74
    dang74 over 1 year ago

    I had never heard of the capacitor paradox.  I look forward to your next blog where you use super capacitors to put and end to Schrodinger's cat.  Wink 

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  • bradfordmiller
    bradfordmiller over 1 year ago

    Consider hooking up an oscilloscope. The charge may be ringing between the two capacitors and thus stored as a magnetic field.

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  • anniel747
    anniel747 over 1 year ago in reply to bradfordmiller

    That would be near the Josephson effect.

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  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago in reply to javagoza

    LOL wonderful! This explains it perfectly Slight smile

    I have herd of parasitic components but never clandestine components, I learned something new!

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  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago in reply to anniel747

    If the post turned out to be popular I thought I could measure the temperature of the caps during the experiment with thermistors. Looks like that's next on the list.

    Haven't done the math yet to see how much warmer the 2 capacitors could get from the 15 missing Joules Gem... I have been robed! lol

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  • anniel747
    anniel747 over 1 year ago in reply to scottiebabe

    Joule thief?

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