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Related

Bypass Capacitor Showdown

scottiebabe
scottiebabe over 1 year ago

Featured: Two 100 nF capacitors:

image

The tiny capacitor at the tip of the pencil is a jelly bean 0402 100nF capacitor, specifically a EMK105B7104KV

image

Here is the capacitors typical impedance (presumably 0V DC bias):

image

I'll test the impedance of my little 0402 capacitor using my nanovna in a 2-port shunt impedance topology.

Ultra-Low Impedance Measurements Using 2-Port Measurements 

image

I cut the test coupon with snips (sorry for the rough edges).

The self resonance frequency was measured at 13 MHz. My test coupon has very poor grounding, so I'll happily shift the blame on to the test setup adding a small additional amount of inductance.

image

I recorded a minimum ESR of 23.6 mOhms at 13 MHz, close enough.

As pretty impressive a sub $100 VNA is measuring 10's of milliohms at 10 MHz. I am certainly running out of dynamic range with the nanovna, it would be a struggle to measure a few milliohms.

image

Big Brown Blob

The giant brown capacitor was pulled out of a junk box and is presumably a 100 nF 400V wax capacitors from many decades ago....

The lead inductance of the wax capacitor isn't doing it any favors, the DUT hit self resonance at 2.2 MHz. 

image

An ESL of 40 nH, yikes! Maybe not a great choice for bypassing a high-speed digital IC.

The minimum ESR recorded was 168 mOhms, a bit of a disappointment as well.

Did we learn anything? Not really. 

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Top Replies

  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago +5
    What about high voltage? I put another 100 nF MLCC on a test coupon for easy probing. It started life at 97.7 nF It was just starting to breakdown at 250V It was breaking down before reaching…
  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago in reply to dougw +4
    lol I was hopping I had a 100 nF disc to give a more realistic comparison If I find one, I'll give it a test.
  • Gough Lui
    Gough Lui over 1 year ago +3
    I guess we just got reminded that the package that a given capacitor comes in is quite important - smaller packages work better at higher frequencies due to reduced series inductance and should have a…
  • dougw
    dougw over 1 year ago

    Bigger is not always better? Relaxed

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  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago in reply to dougw

    lol I was hopping I had a 100 nF disc to give a more realistic comparison 

    image

    If I find one, I'll give it a test.

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  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago

    A "Plastiseal" capacitor 

    image

    Made in Flag ca

    image

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  • Gough Lui
    Gough Lui over 1 year ago

    I guess we just got reminded that the package that a given capacitor comes in is quite important - smaller packages work better at higher frequencies due to reduced series inductance and should have a higher self-resonance frequency. This is why you might see bypass designs near chips having a "bulky" 0805 paralleled with a smaller 0402 of a smaller value. So it's not all just the capacitance value :).

    But for ceramic capacitors, it's always more complicated depending on the type of dielectric. The effect of DC bias could reduce effective capacitance and changes in DC could result in piezeoelectric phenomena resulting in "singing capacitors".

    A nice demo indeed - but also nice to see vintage components that are still alive. I guess it pays to remember that frequencies were much lower back then ... switching converters were uncommon and consumer radios rarely went above VHF in the through-hole era.

    - Gough

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  • robogary
    robogary over 1 year ago

    Wonder how the wax caps would've measured 40 years ago. My wife had better curves 40 years ago too   :-) 

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  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago in reply to Gough Lui

    Thanks for the kind words. It is very true, high value MLCC capacitors are the kings of specsmanship,  often losing 90% of their capacitance at their rated voltage. 

    You are quite right things can get complicated in a hurray dealing with capacitors. When used in the signal path of an amplifier, the voltage coefficient of the MLCC could make it sound different. Additionally, as you say could also turn into a tiny piezo-electric microphone/speaker.

    Lots of fun looking at new versus old.

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  • scottiebabe
    scottiebabe over 1 year ago

    What about high voltage?

    I put another 100 nF MLCC on a test coupon for easy probing. It started life at 97.7 nF

    image

    It was just starting to breakdown at 250V

    image

    It was breaking down before reaching 500V, it clamped the output of my insulation tester to 433V (can't remember the current limit). After being subject to severe electrical overstress, 50 nF disappeared... 

    image

    The brown blob has a capacitance of 

    image

    The brown blob didn't get too fused about a 500V DC bias.

    image

    Though, it was a little bit leaky, passing 14.2uA at 500V...

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