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Ask an Expert Forum Working in Electronics/Electronics-related fields: Perfomance & Expectations.
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Working in Electronics/Electronics-related fields: Perfomance & Expectations.

diemonx
diemonx over 4 years ago

Greetings!

I've been recently through some work related stuff after graduating from school on Electronics Maintenance, and have developed some doubts that I would like to inquiry on people already set on the field. I'm gonna ask the questions first as this is what this board is about, but I'll fill in on why I'm here for people that might be interested in some context:

 

So my questions are basically:

  1. How are expectations handled with projects and jobs in this field of work? What's expected of you or your employees for this line of work?
  2. How is speed and performance usually viewed in these jobs?
  3. What are your personal opinions regarding this field of work and how to improve or find success in it? What are approaches you have taken or seen others take to get things done?

 

------

Context:

 

I recently graduated and got my (what I think is equivalent, as there is not any solid response about how it is translated) Associate Degree/Higher National Diploma/High Level in Vocational Training in Electronics. Went through 3 month internship at a very small IoT company, helping design the PCBs for a gateway project, among some other stuff. Learned a lot about Eagle, Fusion 360, and making BOMs. They liked my designs and the way I did documentation and wanted to hire me too but the school set me up for another interview for a job with a freelance engineer that wanted to develop some CPU chips. The offer was good, and the interview went well even though it was clear I was lacking some concepts and that I had very little programming experience, but the person was interested so we got the deal done.

 

The initial job was developing a clone for a Toshiba CPU. Had to develop a code that could be checked using Verilog tools using C and scripts. The first week and a half, I spent them reading a lot about C, about CPUs in general, about Assembly, taking looots of notes, trying to figure the documentation out with some help from the guy here and there when I had doubts, letting him know during our daily reviews. Developing the code was an uphill battle. I couldn't get anything done or functional except for some file reader. Couldn't keep the "commit a bit of code each day even if its basic" because I felt nothing was working and when he helped, he did 90% of the job so I felt pretty embarrassed about it but he agreed that there were a lot of concepts to learn but that eventually I would be able to get it done. After a month, he said the project was no longer profitable at the current pace so he told me to stop working on it. He gave me a new project, which was reverse-engineering some old PCBs that needed to get new schematics in KiCad, using some scans of older PCB schematics as reference. The goal for it to be profitable was to do one or two a week but commented on how it being my first board would maybe take me a bit more while getting used to it, but it certainly was a lot easier, just grabbing the multimeter, checking connections and making the schematic. I took day and a half to do the symbols for the custom components and the research. Then I started figuring out a good methodology for it, as it had around 30 or more 16pin+ ICs and a couple BGA chips (late 80's/early 90's PCB,made with traces in vertically on one side and horizontally on the other): test the pins and following traces and vias ,writing down the layout, what components I had already checked, starting from top to bottom. It was taking me a looong time. I don't know what it was but just flipping the board, checking connections, following 0.5mm traces that got under chips and went through vias to other 5 components made those 8 hours go fast but I was progressing very slowly. Eventually I was getting in a groove and found what I think was the right methodology for it, and as more components get in the schematic that share connections the faster you are already connecting the other ones too. Still, a week and a half had passed and we met to see how things went, I showed him my methodology, how I was doing it, how I was already going faster but that some things took me some more time. Then he asked me how much % I think I got done and I felt I had around 35-45% done, but that it would clear pretty fast. As soon as I finished he decided to let me go on the spot, citing that I was too slow, that he expected minimum 85% of the board done, that it wasn't profitable either and that his expenses were too much for barely any results. He said that I took a day and half to do the symbols when he could do it in half a day, and that he had some other guy working for him that helps him on the side which did a more complex chip schematics with 15 pages in one night while saying that he didn't see me getting any better in 3 months or more so I was let go. I disagreed with him on that last part but you can't really argue with a guy comparing a fresh guy out of school to years-long professional and engineers.

 

After a while jobless and looking for work, mid-september I got contacted by my former boss at the intership asking me if I wanted to help finish the PCB that I was working on all while working from home (he would bring the materials) as a freelance job, only thing I had to do was name my price and how long would it take me. He explained some of the stuff that he wanted to do and all the new changes. I said I could, and did some research on hourly prices for technicians and got set on a price similar to what I was getting paid previously and set a 60 hour timeframe. He agreed with the price, but said that he could do it in 20 hours. I said that it took me a month to do what was currently done by learning new things and also while handling other unrelated stuff so I thought 60 hours was fair. Anyway, he disagreed and said that because I know more now, I should be able to go faster so I agreed that even if that was true these things change all the time while suggestions arrive, new things pop-up and changes need to be made, that it might be possible to do but that we would see how it went. Got the materials, had to take measurements of the enclosure and components again, all the things that needed to be fixed were still there so I fixed them, had to be precise about those measurements, had to redesign a lot of things and so on, he kept asking me for other tasks that were not planned or changing things as I asked and confirmed design decisions. As I foretold, at the 20 hour mark, it wasn't done yet and I let him know if he wanted to continue and he said I needed to be faster and to keep going. I did a lot of things on my own free time free too to accelerate the process. I finished the project then suddenly got asked if I wanted to work officially. I accepted (after discussing the terms and setting for the payment of the work already done aside) and started 2 weeks ago.

 

Today, as soon as I got in he told to me to have a PCB protoype we designed recently, for the board to be all set up in an hour. I am still not yet caught up with the dexterity of the whole soldering thing and the lab at work is not very well equipped for it except for the basics, so it was a lot of improvising things to keep boards fixed, using a caliper to fix objects so they don't move, having issues with static in my tweezers that kept pulling SMD components, and so on. Just switching between picking the component, inserting or pressing the component in an unconfortable way, while handling tweezers, the soldering iron and the string of solder, was probably what took half if not most of the time. All in all, it was obvious that in an hour I didn't have it, I had it a couple of hours later. But in that time I got handed quite a few comments about it: "This should have been finished already", "Are you still doing the board?", once I finished it "This is what you have done? Ever since you got here?".

 

The CPU job left me feeling very insecure about the way I do things, I tried to research a lot and tried to build things but it was a lot of concepts flying in my head with no clear connection, all while having the need to build those concepts in code, which by itself I still also needed to understand. Then got switched to an easier project, working non-stop but I guess it was not efficient enough for it and got canned because even though in both cases we were both clear it was gonna take more work while I learned the ropes, I wasn't profitable nor good enough in my first month. And now this guy that I work for now, wants to finish a project I know how to handle, so I set a timeframe knowing how things went when I was back there before, getting as a response that it can be done faster, and then as expected there was no way it was going to get done in 20 hours and I got told I needed to be faster because "everything was already done you only had to put some things here and there". I feel I don't know what some people expect anymore or if they even know how long some things take. Especially when learning things brand new. And then these comments today have been messing up with my confidence big time, and I am feeling unsure about my skills and confidence regarding if I am able to even to work at all in electronics.

 

It is a big rant and I apologize for it, but I appreciate any comment and anyone who reads it.

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  • genebren
    genebren over 4 years ago

    Don't give up on the electronics industry based on these two examples.

     

    First off the CPU job was far more complex a task for a recent graduate at the Associate degree level.  I think that the job would be difficult for an individual with either a higher degree or a greater number of years of experience.  The IOT (internship) seemed like a better fit, but converting to freelance there seemed to be a time/budget issue.  Your estimate was likely a better guess than theirs.  And working faster is not really a solution to the problem.  As a freelancer, I tend to prefer bidding jobs as a one time fee as opposed to hourly rates as I don't like to get into situations where someone will question the number of hours that a task will take (I am also retired and I work more as a hobby as opposed to making a living, so this works better for me).

     

    These are challenging times for employers and employees.  I have hired new folks in the past, fresh out of school and with prior experience, but I felt that they needed a longer period of time to learn the ropes with a new company and also needed  a longer period of time to train in their field.  Setting short time constraints or having unrealistic expectations (too complex of task) is no way to start out a new employee.

     

    I hope that you are able to work through these issues and find a position where they are more willing to help you continue your training through mentor-ships and a series of appropriate task and time frames.

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  • genebren
    genebren over 4 years ago

    Don't give up on the electronics industry based on these two examples.

     

    First off the CPU job was far more complex a task for a recent graduate at the Associate degree level.  I think that the job would be difficult for an individual with either a higher degree or a greater number of years of experience.  The IOT (internship) seemed like a better fit, but converting to freelance there seemed to be a time/budget issue.  Your estimate was likely a better guess than theirs.  And working faster is not really a solution to the problem.  As a freelancer, I tend to prefer bidding jobs as a one time fee as opposed to hourly rates as I don't like to get into situations where someone will question the number of hours that a task will take (I am also retired and I work more as a hobby as opposed to making a living, so this works better for me).

     

    These are challenging times for employers and employees.  I have hired new folks in the past, fresh out of school and with prior experience, but I felt that they needed a longer period of time to learn the ropes with a new company and also needed  a longer period of time to train in their field.  Setting short time constraints or having unrealistic expectations (too complex of task) is no way to start out a new employee.

     

    I hope that you are able to work through these issues and find a position where they are more willing to help you continue your training through mentor-ships and a series of appropriate task and time frames.

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  • diemonx
    diemonx over 4 years ago in reply to genebren

    Appreciate your reply!

     

    The CPU job seemed complex even when he suggested it, and they were rather "simple" CPUs, as they were old or discontinued chips. But as I said, during the interview and after my questions and the first week, it really seemed like it was a guy looking for someone to teach things to and that maybe he was willing to "invest" in it, as I felt I was getting paid to learn. So I soon learned that I needed to produce stuff and be profitable and sadly, I couldn't reach that. Not under those terms at least.

     

    For the intership guy, I looked up on freelancing websites for similar jobs or tasks just to take a guess on the price. Still, it wasn't very useful as they were engineer rates and some other strange rates or a set payment per project. I went for an hourly rate based on my previous salary as it was the only reference I had. And yes, indeed my estimate ended being close to it, even if you count the extra hours I didn't tally to the total hours. Working under him and seeing the sort of job that is being done, I still don't understand how for some of the more precise things like design or even PCB mounting is done better faster, especially with the lack of proper tools.

     

    Your third paragraph is part of that paradox (or current paradox?) about the job landscape for people getting in recent times: Can't get a job because you don't have enough experience, can't get experience because you can't get a job. At the same time, I understand how complex it is and how many places don't have the time/resources to train new people, how things like fees and taxes come when hiring that might end up generating losses, and so on. It's not simple that much is true.

     

    Hopefully, improvement will keep being a part of the plan!

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