element14 Community
element14 Community
    Register Log In
  • Site
  • Search
  • Log In Register
  • Members
    Members
    • Benefits of Membership
    • Achievement Levels
    • Members Area
    • Personal Blogs
    • Feedback and Support
    • What's New on element14
  • Learn
    Learn
    • Learning Center
    • eBooks
    • STEM Academy
    • Webinars, Training and Events
    • More
  • Technologies
    Technologies
    • 3D Printing
    • FPGA
    • Industrial Automation
    • Internet of Things
    • Power & Energy
    • Sensors
    • More
  • Challenges & Projects
    Challenges & Projects
    • Design Challenges
    • element14 presents
    • Project14
    • Arduino Projects
    • Raspberry Pi Projects
    • More
  • Products
    Products
    • Arduino
    • Dev Tools
    • Manufacturers
    • Raspberry Pi
    • RoadTests & Reviews
    • Avnet Boards Community
    • More
  • Store
    Store
    • Visit Your Store
    • Choose Another Store
      • Europe
      •  Austria (German)
      •  Belgium (Dutch, French)
      •  Bulgaria (Bulgarian)
      •  Czech Republic (Czech)
      •  Denmark (Danish)
      •  Estonia (Estonian)
      •  Finland (Finnish)
      •  France (French)
      •  Germany (German)
      •  Hungary (Hungarian)
      •  Ireland
      •  Israel
      •  Italy (Italian)
      •  Latvia (Latvian)
      •  
      •  Lithuania (Lithuanian)
      •  Netherlands (Dutch)
      •  Norway (Norwegian)
      •  Poland (Polish)
      •  Portugal (Portuguese)
      •  Romania (Romanian)
      •  Russia (Russian)
      •  Slovakia (Slovak)
      •  Slovenia (Slovenian)
      •  Spain (Spanish)
      •  Sweden (Swedish)
      •  Switzerland(German, French)
      •  Turkey (Turkish)
      •  United Kingdom
      • Asia Pacific
      •  Australia
      •  China
      •  Hong Kong
      •  India
      •  Korea (Korean)
      •  Malaysia
      •  New Zealand
      •  Philippines
      •  Singapore
      •  Taiwan
      •  Thailand (Thai)
      • Americas
      •  Brazil (Portuguese)
      •  Canada
      •  Mexico (Spanish)
      •  United States
      Can't find the country/region you're looking for? Visit our export site or find a local distributor.
  • Translate
  • Profile
Proving Science
  • Challenges & Projects
  • Project14
  • Proving Science
  • More
  • Cancel
Proving Science
Blog Experimenting with AC Current Sensing
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • Documents
  • Events
  • Members
  • Mentions
  • Sub-Groups
  • Tags
  • More
  • Cancel
  • New
Proving Science requires membership for participation - click to join
Blog Post Actions
  • Subscribe by email
  • More
  • Cancel
  • Share
  • Subscribe by email
  • More
  • Cancel
Group Actions
  • Group RSS
  • More
  • Cancel
Engagement
  • Author Author: jw0752
  • Date Created: 18 Jul 2020 9:35 PM Date Created
  • Views 351 views
  • Likes 9 likes
  • Comments 12 comments
  • provingsciencech
Related
Recommended

Experimenting with AC Current Sensing

jw0752
jw0752
18 Jul 2020

After watching James Lewis' Work Bench Wednesday presentation a couple weeks ago on Clamp Meters and sensing current

 

Workbench Wednesday 24: No-Contact Current Measurements

 

and reading some of the comments I decided that it would be fun to run some experiments to verify as true of false some of my own conceptions about the physics involved. Some of the questions that I want to explore are:

 

Can I simply (without a complicated circuit) read the presence of AC currents of less than an Amp in a wire?

 

Will the AC voltage applied to the load have any affect on the output if the current is held constant?

 

Will the output reading I get be linear with respect to the current in the wire?

 

Will the position or orientation of the wire in the sensing coil have any effect on the Output reading?

 

After giving it a lot of thought and doing a few small empirical experiments with coils and different cores I settled on using a large toroidal transformer with a 5 cm internal hole as my sensing coil.

 

 

The black wire coming through the toroid will be considered the Primary winding for our experiment and the toroid's original 115 Volt winding will be considered the secondary. The original secondary of the toroid (Red Wires) will be ignored. In addition to the Toroid transformer I will be using an AC power Supply that I built a while back.

 

  

 

and some 115 Volt light bulbs which will serve as loads for the AC power supply. If you happen to try to read the Ammeter on the power supply in any of the following pictures please be aware that it is set to display Deci-Amps. This is a bit strange but it was dictated by Ammeter that I used when I built the power supply. The meter will also display in Amps but the Deci-Amp setting gives me one more digit of precision. In addition to the meters on the power supply I will have a Radio Shack digital multimeter in line to give a more accurate reading of the primary current and a Fluke multimeter to read the millivolt output from the secondary winding of the Toroid transformer. None of my meters or test equipment can be considered of very high quality or precision but they will suffice for this simple general exploration. The AC power supply has a small variac for the output and this makes it difficult to get any precision as the slider on the variac takes steps of a volt or two from one winding to the next.

 

Here is a picture of the test setup:

 

 

In the picture you can see that the Radio Shack meter is reading 0.35 Amps and the power supply is reading 3.4 deci-Amps.

 

With a load of a 72 Watt incandescent bulb I began at a 50 mA current and took 50 mA steps up until I reached a 600 mA current level. Each step of the way I noted the output voltage on the secondary of the toroidal transformer. This voltage varied from 125 mV at 50 mA on the primary to 5812 mV when the primary was at 600 mA AC. Once I had accumulated the data I began to experiment with it.

 

 

One of my original questions was whether the output in mV would be linear with the primary current. One method to prove this is to assume that it is true and then do an experiment to verify it. My first experiment was to divide the mid-range of the output 2171 mV  by the mid-range of the primary current 300 mA. This gave me a result of approximately 7.24 mV per mA. If the relationship between input and output was indeed linear we should be able to predict an output from an input and all of our data points should match up. I tried a couple experiments using my new linear factor. While the factor gave me a ballpark result it was obviously not linear. The closer my test point was to the mid-range the more accurate it was. For example if we apply the factor to out first 50 mA input we should get an output of 362 mV not the 125 mV actual reading and this factor applied to the 600 mA input gives us 4344 mV not the actual 5812 mV that we recorded.

 

I used Xcel to chart and plot the data which gave a more accurate picture:

 

 

Not bad but definitely not linear. My speculation for this effect is that the lower primary currents are inefficient at coupling with the core of the transformer. While it is well beyond my ability to test we would probably continue to see a slight increase in the slope of the curve up until the core's magnetic saturation point. This effect must also be present for the manufacturers of clamp meters and they must have to use software or other techniques to compensate for the non-linearity.

 

My next experiment was to see if the voltage would make any difference in the output if the current were to remain constant. Everything I have been taught and the mathematics say that voltage should not affect it but why not have a little seeing is believing. To do this experiment I used a different light bulb (25 Watt) to raise the load resistance. Now I had 55 Volts applied to the circuit in order to have a current of 200 mA. The output from this experiment was 1235 mV which is well within the error of my instruments compared to the 200 mA at 15 Volts from the original data collection where the output was 1254 mV. As expected voltage does not make a difference. The output is tied to the current in the wire and not the voltage producing that current.

 

My next question was whether the position of the wire in the hole of the toroid would make any difference in the output. The physics and mathematics say that it should not but the vendors of Clamp Meters usually advocate the placement of the wire in the center of the jaws so we will see. Here is a video of this experiment.

 

You don't have permission to edit metadata of this video.
Edit media
x
Upload Preview

 

The movement of the wire had no more affect on the output than the background fluctuations produced by my equipment so the answer is that position and orientation do not matter. Perhaps the inability of the clampmeter manufacturers to produce a clamp with a symmetrical and closed core makes it necessary for the wire to be in a sweet spot but with a symmetrical closed core it doesn't matter.

 

Even with simple experiments like these I always learn something and I always have a lot of fun in the process.

 

Thanks for looking over my shoulder.

 

John

Anonymous

Top Comments

  • Jan Cumps
    Jan Cumps over 1 year ago in reply to jw0752 +5

    No. What I tried to explain is that you use a current transformer with high impedance closing.

    It needs low impedance, so that the induced current can flow.

    https://circuitglobe.com/difference-between-current…

  • michaelkellett
    michaelkellett over 1 year ago +4

    It might be useful to repeat your experiment but measuring the current in the torroid coil using an AC meter. Connect the meter right across the winding,

    that way the transformer will be working as a classic…

  • jw0752
    jw0752 over 1 year ago in reply to michaelkellett +4

    Hi Michael,

     

    I had a few minutes this morning and my curiosity about your suggested modification to my experiment was driving me crazy so I set it up exactly as I did before but instead of measuring the…

  • jw0752
    jw0752 over 1 year ago in reply to michaelkellett

    I left the experiment on the bench and when I had time tonight I took two more runs of data. One I used a 7 volt zener clamp across the secondary and then read the voltage across the clamp. this was my own idea and the result was different from the original non-linear experiment but the data was still not acceptably linear. This further confirms your and Jan's recommendations.

     

    The next run of data I took using a 100 Ohm load across the secondary and then I recorded the mV across the resistor. As you predicted this resulted in an acceptably linear result

     

    Thanks to everyone for their patience with me and for the great suggestions that have helped me better understand Current Transformers and Voltage Transformers.

     

    John

    • Cancel
    • Up +4 Down
    • Reply
    • More
    • Cancel
  • michaelkellett
    michaelkellett over 1 year ago in reply to jw0752

    I thought it should work better and I'm very happy it has proved to do so.

    I'm not quite sure why it is more linear in the current transformer mode - it might be worth looking at the waveforms on a scope but I

    expect them to fairly sinusoidal in bith cases.

     

    MK

    • Cancel
    • Up +2 Down
    • Reply
    • More
    • Cancel
  • jw0752
    jw0752 over 1 year ago in reply to Jan Cumps

    Thank you very much for providing the link with the excellent explanation of the difference between the Current Transformer and the Potential Transformer.

     

    John

    • Cancel
    • Up +2 Down
    • Reply
    • More
    • Cancel
  • Jan Cumps
    Jan Cumps over 1 year ago in reply to jw0752

    No. What I tried to explain is that you use a current transformer with high impedance closing.

    It needs low impedance, so that the induced current can flow.

    https://circuitglobe.com/difference-between-current-transformer-ct-and-potential-transformer-pt.html

    • Cancel
    • Up +5 Down
    • Reply
    • More
    • Cancel
  • jw0752
    jw0752 over 1 year ago in reply to Jan Cumps

    Hi Jan,

     

    Do you mean that the basically open inductor has voltage spikes that the voltmeter is having difficulty properly interpreting and this is causing the non-linearity of the data?

     

    John

    • Cancel
    • Up +2 Down
    • Reply
    • More
    • Cancel
>
Element14

element14 is the first online community specifically for engineers. Connect with your peers and get expert answers to your questions.

  • Members
  • Learn
  • Technologies
  • Challenges & Projects
  • Products
  • Store
  • About Us
  • Feedback & Support
  • FAQs
  • Terms of Use
  • Privacy Policy
  • Legal and Copyright Notices
  • Sitemap
  • Cookies

An Avnet Company © 2022 Premier Farnell Limited. All Rights Reserved.

Premier Farnell Ltd, registered in England and Wales (no 00876412), registered office: Farnell House, Forge Lane, Leeds LS12 2NE.

ICP 备案号 10220084.

Follow element14

  • Facebook
  • Twitter
  • linkedin
  • YouTube