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Member's Forum Is anyone interested with the Z80?
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  • z80
Related

Is anyone interested with the Z80?

COMPACT
COMPACT over 10 years ago

The Z80 is still manufactured today and I was wondering whether there is any interest for a community or discussion group.

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  • Workshopshed
    Workshopshed over 10 years ago in reply to COMPACT +9
    Here's some of the books I learnt about Z80 from, I donated them to the Cambridge computer history museum last year.
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 9 years ago +6
    This is the circuit I made boards for sometime back to get people playing with them:
  • gdstew
    gdstew over 9 years ago in reply to COMPACT +6
    I worked at Mostek maintaining the Fairchild Sentry testers used to test the Z80s when they first began to manufacturer them. The second computer I every built (parts, pcb, solder) was the SDB-80 which…
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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 9 years ago

    Did you know that the Z80 has different memory access timings for instruction fetches and standard memory accesses?

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  • gdstew
    gdstew over 9 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    I worked at Mostek maintaining the Fairchild Sentry testers used to test the Z80s when they first began to manufacturer them. The second computer I every

    built (parts, pcb, solder) was the SDB-80 which was the Mostek Software Development Board for the Z80 with 16K bytes (8 - MK4116 16K bit) dynamic RAMs

    which Mostek also made. The first wire wrap board I ever made was a 48K byte dynamic RAM board also using MK4116s that worked with the SDB-80. I can

    tell you there were a bunch of happy technicians when we were told that Mostek would be second sourcing the Z-80 and even happier when we were told we

    could buy SDB-80 kits and build them ourselves! Those were really fun days. I still have a Zilog Z80 in a ceramic package that says it was manufactured in

    Dallas even though Mostek was actually in Carrollton a suburb in Dallas County just north of north-west Dallas.

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  • clem57
    clem57 over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Reading this reminds me of how old I am. Even dirt seems young these days.

    Clem

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to clem57

    Hi Clem (if that's alright with you ?),

     

    Don't despair, I've become a 'grumpy old man' myself lately sometimes -:).

    (My wife was born in the middle of WW II, glad I missed that period - if only just).

    But writing about my experiences gives me the idea that it isn't all over, and of no use to anybody any more.

    If I can fill in some white spots in other members' memories and/or knowledge, like they have done in mine,

    that would make it worth my while (like they said in the old days). Just keeping readers amused is OK too, btw.

     

    I had to stop my electronics experiments a few years ago because of deteriorating eyesight. SPICE for me is no alternative, as I believe it can not

    reliably simulate a real novelty circuit. After all it stands to reason that you can't get out what has not been put in, can you ?

    So the only thing left for me to do is devising new circuits ... mentally, and hoping I can get someone interested enough to put my ideas to the test.

    Also rewarding is acting as a kind of sparring partner for my son, when he is figuring out, how to improve on existing vinyl cartridge cantilever

    design e.g..

     

    Hope I haven't annoyed you.

    Cheers

    Ray

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    As for degrading eyesight I'm reliant upon my bench binocular microscope just to solder 1960's tech like DIP ICs and through hole.

    My spare parts are so old that I have to remove the unwanted oxide layer from them (just like my brain).

     

    I don't like too much SPICE in my food.

     

    Analog turntables - Don't get me started!  The analog signal is distorted prior to recording so it can be reverse distorted for playback to support the RIAA equalisation.

    And also seem to also ignore other distortion influences such as wow and flutter, stylus/cartridge momentum and contact friction variations

     

    Like oscilloscopes, sound should be sampled at about 5x or more than the desired maximum bandwidth.

    And how does one get a speaker to playback perfect square waves?

     

    All of this gives me the "jitters!"

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to Andrew J

    Hi Andrew,

     

    Reading your profile, several thoughts spring to mind:

     

    - seems like a wonderfulfilling (language economy) job/passtime - educating people, in order to enrich nowdays' ict with an intriguing past

    - visiting my wife's family in Canada years ago, we went to the Toronto Science Museum - I had the time of my life !

    - your level denominator goes, well ... lovely with your 'job' -:)  Women's role in technology is grossly underrated, and almost neglected

      (ENIAC, NASA, etc).

     

    Cheers

    Ray

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  • gdstew
    gdstew over 6 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    To the list of analog turntables (and vinyl records) problems vs CD you can add  poor channel separation, lower signal to noise, far less dynamic range, low frequency limits,

    groove wear, warping, inherent vulnerability to acoustic feedback, tracking problems, and less resistant to injury and corruption.

     

    As for reproducing square waves, as far as I know, no instrument other than electronic synthesizers produce anything that approaches the fast rise/fall times of a square wave.

    That said, there are several groups that I like that use(d) synthesizers.

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    Hi COMPACT,

     

    My son has a binocular microscope for his cartridge repairs/mods - tried it, didn't work for me alas (btw: there's a not-so-steady-anymore hand

    to take into account as well). Thanks anyway for the uplifting tip.

     

    I've read enough disturbing reports by pro circuit designers to stay away from SPICE and the like. My WYSIWYG-like statement lacked nuance,

    that's true, but transitional phenomena e.g. are difficult to be measured correctly, and consequently just as difficult to predict/calculate/simulate.

    And my experiments were on so called linear PSUs; btw: there's practically nothing 'linear' really in the operation of these classic power supplies.

    As a result they are noisy, and hard to tame. Your average designer, however thinks, an overkill of microFarads + 'tripods' will easily cure this ...

    Audiots frequently spend big bucks on external power supply 'upgrades' - on top of the just mentioned cure, these contain big transformers

    with rediculous VA specs. While this might make sense for a power amp with underrated internal PSU, such upgrade PSUs for phono-amps are

    outrageous ! We have performed in-depth listening tests here, and concluded that the advertised pros - improved bass response and dynamics -

    didn't make up for the apparent loss of overall-quality: the music seemed robbed of its liveliness. Some team members stated: "As if an elephant

    is sitting on the sound".

     

    If you would want to consider RCA's Dynagroove technology* as a kind of early dithering, I would be with you, but calling RIAA equalisation

    distorting the signal ... Changing the tonal balance in no way fits the definition of distortion. It is in fact a perfectly rational adaptation to the medium.

    Its primary objective was optimizing playing time - so maybe one could call it a form of (physical) compression. The second aim, however is to

    diminish and limit distortion - i.e. tracking distortion ! The famous ADC XLM cartridge from the sixties arguably was one of the most agile ever,

    but it was not free from tracking distortion, of course. Here the question arises, how one is to discern between distortion caused by the vinyl

    registration process, and distortion from the cartridge tracking the groove with its needle.

     

    My son has done quite a bit of research in improving suspension in phono cartridges; he was surprised to find, how much there still is to be

    gained in terms of tracking distortion this way - the experiments were done with state-of-the-art commercial carts.

     

    (to be continued)

    Ray

    * dynamics at the end of the Pink Panther theme by Mancini e.g. really are impressive, but ... sure, it's just an effect - no HiFi.

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Rather than perfect technical reproduction, modern audiophiles try to recreate a sense of being there at the original recording. To achieve this serious audiophiles place their speakers about 6-12 feet from walls and bevel or curve all orthogonal corners of the listening room and use sound absorbent materials as necessary. Even the stylus adds its own colour and audiohphiles usually have a collection of different ones to use for different recordings.

    My Uncle is a really serious audiophile. He sends his used stylii cartidges to Switzerland to have them refurbished at $1,000 each, his pair of speakers cost about $500,000 and I'd hate to think how much he paid for is exotic Tube/Valve amp.

     

    For those who aren't so as rich,  a pair of ELAC Navis ARB-51 Active Speakers designed by Andrew Jones is getting great reviews.  These $1,000 speakers are devoid of any Digital Signal Processing.

     

    For me, I'm just happy to listen to my 1984 Sony D-50 Discman with headphones which still works today.

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Hi COMPACT,

     

    "Like oscilloscopes, sound should be sampled at about 5x or more than the desired maximum bandwidth", COMPACT wrote.

    This ex-Tektronix test & calibration engineer couldn't agree more, but ... at the time of development, this was technically way out of reach for the

    people working on e.g. the quadrophonic sound registration on vinyl, as well as those working on the Red Book standard.

    Nowdays, cartridges with a frequency range of up to 50 kHz are available, serving people who have been convinced that they need super-tweeters

    at the other end of their music reproduction chains ...

     

    "And how does one get a speaker to playback perfect square waves?", COMPACT asked.

    Peter Walker of QUAD Mfg fame came pretty close; in fact it was his ultimate way of testing (300 Hz) his almost single-handedly developped ESL

    (Electrostatic LoudSpeaker; (fifties). Ever auditioned one ? You will never forget the listening experience ! We've also enjoyed Martin Logan's CLS

    very much; of the electrodynamic units, Manger and Dynaudio probably have the best pulse responses. With ED speakers one tries to avoid square

    waves because reproducing the top part would mean sending DC trough the poor unit(s), which very few would survive eventually. Furthermore,

    audio is about reproducing natural sounds, not technical noises*; and music is the most complicated of sounds. Faithfully reproducing it means

    getting the rise and fall right - these coïncide with the attaque of the musical instrument played, and the decay of the resulting sound. The most

    demanding instrument attaque-wise, in terms of amplifier slew rate, turned out to be the harpsichord (& family), which is easy to understand once

    you look at its playing mechanism. The same cousin who introduced me to electronics via his self-built Xtal receiver, made replicas of famous old

    European harpsichords, together with his father (my godfather). I quickly grew to like the sound, that many audiophiles loathe. A possible cure might

    be listening to the first chords of Bach's Italian Concerto in a harpsichord rendition (as it was meant to be) - it sings so much more that way than on

    the piano ! (Try Glenn Gould's fifties recording vs. his almost anemiatic eighties registration by Sony).

     

    (to be continued)

    Ray

    * I know, that same Peter Walker in an interview made a statement in relation to his ESLs that seems to argue otherwise ...

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Hi COMPACT and Garry,

     

    (Better late than never:) I'm sorry, if I have provoked replies that to me read like a kind of vinyl bashing ... won't go into that, because the

    arguments are mostly too well-known to make a discussion in this day and age still worthwhile. I've been used to these arguments in audio

    circles, but didn't expect them here, to be honest. And the worn-out objective vs. subjective discussion - culminating in head vs. heart ratings -

    better be left alone, too, wouldn't you agree ?

    Never mind; I was in fact just closing off some musings with an anecdote, but perhaps it would have been wise to present it with a bit more

    context. Here that is yet.

    The show was during the vinyl revival in the nineties, and we only had a speaker brand plus hi-grade vinyl at the time - all the rest was borrowed

    from friendly colleague-importers. A high-grade CD-player was part of the demo set, but only used on request from our visitors. Btw, we didn't

    do analog vs. digital comparisons.

    The purpose of the shredded Mona Lisa poster was to show in a (simplified) pictorial manner, what digitizing is in essence. Apart from a good deal

    of laughter, we als got recognition by colleagues referring visitors to our demo room. Only Philips was 'not amused' (and that was long before we

    demoed the CD Clarifier the next year, thereby proving their slogan - "Perfect for Ever" - wrong; but that's an other story).

    I also like to make an other point: as an importer of high-grade audio, I had to audition/listen to numerous gear/sets. With a few exceptions

    the equipment was not 'my cup of tea', and I was pretty sure that I wouldn't be able to enjoy my music through it. Most of the time I tried to

    imagine however, what enthralled the owner/seller. And by doing so, I often succeeded in 'hearing his point' ...

     

    To prevent allegations that I'm living in the past, and that vinyl is obsolete, let me turn my eyes to the future* for a change: after virgin, HQ, and

    Quiet Vinyl, vinyl lovers recently were treated to (the promise of) the Holy Vinyl Grail: HD-Vinyl. Multi millions have been invested in this project

    that stems from the country where mr. Adolf H. was born, and that is frequently mixed up with your beloved 'Down Under', COMPACT. At the

    risk of being judged too critical this time (and even because the concept is basically on digital), I think it's a mad men's scheme, and am certainly

    not alone in that: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/hd-vinyl-exciting-concept-its-last-years-news .

     

    Cheers

    Ray

    * the commercial product has been announced several times - yet have seen nothing so far ...

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Take a look at this - I think it is impressive!

     

    http://www.fagginfoundation.org/biography/

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  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    Take a look at this - I think it is impressive!

     

    http://www.fagginfoundation.org/biography/

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Children
  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to COMPACT

    COMPACT  wrote:

     

    Take a look at this - I think it is impressive!

     

    http://www.fagginfoundation.org/biography/

    Sorry for this late response, COMPACT (seen too many doctors lately) !

    Thanks for sharing this fascinating, illustrated time-line through the life and works of one of the key figures in (micro)computer history.

    I knew most of the facts and figures, but getting everything presented from the horse's mouth really is something else.

     

    From the many things that caught my eye, let me comment on a few:

    - (1965) "The Olivetti Programma 101 ... contained a small computer made of discrete components ... ". However much my admiration for the

       development of the IC, I've never been able to commit myself to applying them in my designs, still (since the sixties) preferring hand-picked

       discrete components over 'black boxes'. That way I feel full freedom and more in control of things, although I'm aware of the drawbacks; so

       call me oldfashioned ...

    - (1970) "The layout of the Z80-CPU. Handdrawn by Federico (by two thirds) ... ". "Those were the days !" - no CAD-CAM. Has anybody ever

      assessed the error rate in both cases ?

     

    Having written this, I wonder: wouldn't we have been better off here, sticking to your original question and everything directly related, than

    wandering off(-topic) to audio nirvana ... ?

     

    Cheers

    Ray

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  • raylec
    raylec over 6 years ago in reply to raylec

    (addendum to audio discussion)

    It would seem that I was not right after all in stating that various audio debates have become a thing of the past.

    (while visiting him, my son pointed this out to me:)

     

    - (as to the objectivists vs. subjectivists debate) a class-D* power amp has been presented at recent Munich High-End Show**,

       which is said to be "100% mathematically correct". The following statement, however, is the relevant one in our issue:

      "We build what we simulate and simulate what we build. ... We believe that all matters for the sound quality can be measured

       although we often have to develop new measurement methods that are indicative of the subjective sound quality. We direct

       all R&D efforts on such measurable metrics. If this does not agree with the listening results we improve our objective metrics."

       For all interested:  https://www.audioxpress.com/news/purifi-audio-promises-to-reduce-distortion-in-speakers-and-amplifiers  .

       For all not versed in audio who-is-who:  the people behind Purifi are leading developpers in their field.

     

    - (as to the being there - at recording - experience) Dr. Edgar Choueiri, professor of applied physics at Princeton University,

       has developped a 3D audio processor, enabling the listener to enjoy his records in 3D via a normal stereo set: BACCH SP.

       All we can do is hope and pray that MS will leave this alone, to prevent it from suffering the same fate as HDCD ...

     

    Ray

    *for all not versed in audio: the D does not stand for digital; class D means switching amps.

    **once again: HD Vinyl nowhere to be seen (heard), no news, no nothing - a hoax ... ?

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