Plotter/printer recommendations

Op Mon, 16 May 2011 21:27:53 +0200 schreef Kirk Sceviour 

<aircrew1@rogers.com>:

Currently I export my PCB artwork straight from Eagle (5.11) to a laser

printer. Unfortunately this tends to create art that needs to be doubled 

up

for use in the exposure box (not dark enough). Besides being a real pain 

on

detailed boards I'm certain this is not getting the most out of Eagle.

 

That being said can anyone tell me a bit about some of the plotters that

show up in the CAM device listings? Will a plotter produce a darker image

than a laser printer for example and which type of device should I be

looking for.

 

I'm strictly a hobbyist however my boards are often fairly complicated

double sided affairs and I'm moving into SMT to lower the footprints. I

need something middle of the road at least.

 

Thanks

Hello Kirk,

Don't know what you use as sheet material in your laser printer, but it 

can make a big difference. Full transparant 'overhead projection' type 

sheets aren't that good. Back when I was making my own PCB's I used 'Mega 

laserstar film'. It's made specially for better toner attachment and you 

get much darker prints with it. If you didn't used it already, it can't 

hurt to try.

Of course the printer (and it settings) make a large difference, but with 

this film I got good results on 3 different laser printers.

I got the sheets from Farnell (..):

Laserstar A4 film 10 sheets

art: 895945

see they still stock it.

Richard.

Hi Kirk,

First, what system are you using? I use high quality photosensitive boards.

I was  using a laser printer and printing to over head transparency film but

I found the printer was distorting some of my image slightly and this was

throwing off my CNC drilling holes.

Now I use an HP 8500 printer (inkjet) and printing to premium inkjet

transparency film (HP C3834A) with perfect results down to very fine traces

with no loss of detail.

Rob

"Kirk Sceviour" <aircrew1@rogers.com> wrote in message

news:iqrtro$oqj$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

Currently I export my PCB artwork straight from Eagle (5.11) to a laser

printer. Unfortunately this tends to create art that needs to be doubled

up

for use in the exposure box (not dark enough). Besides being a real pain

on

detailed boards I'm certain this is not getting the most out of Eagle.

 

That being said can anyone tell me a bit about some of the plotters that

show up in the CAM device listings? Will a plotter produce a darker image

than a laser printer for example and which type of device should I be

looking for.

 

I'm strictly a hobbyist however my boards are often fairly complicated

double sided affairs and I'm moving into SMT to lower the footprints. I

need something middle of the road at least.

 

Thanks

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the

CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

 

On 5/16/2011 12:27 PM, Kirk Sceviour wrote:

Currently I export my PCB artwork straight from Eagle (5.11) to a laser

printer. Unfortunately this tends to create art that needs to be doubled up

for use in the exposure box (not dark enough). Besides being a real pain on

detailed boards I'm certain this is not getting the most out of Eagle.

 

That being said can anyone tell me a bit about some of the plotters that

show up in the CAM device listings? Will a plotter produce a darker image

than a laser printer for example and which type of device should I be

looking for.

 

I'm strictly a hobbyist however my boards are often fairly complicated

double sided affairs and I'm moving into SMT to lower the footprints. I

need something middle of the road at least.

 

Thanks

what i can tell you about plotters is that nobody uses them anymore, so

they can be found for cheap, if they can be found...

but unless you make hundreds of different boards every year, I would

recommend you just use a board house, they are also cheap these days.

the darkness of the print is dependent on the quality of the ink you use

and the quality of the printer, i think if you will be better off

finding better ink or a better laser printer than looking for a surplus

plotter ( they are also slow). and even better, you can save a lot of

work just using a board house. BatchPCB is slow ( like 4 weeks), but a

board costs only about $10. Beta Layout is higher quality and can be

fast, but it costs more like $70 a board, more than I would spend as a

hobbyist.

Thanks for the quick replies.

This answers my question. Thanks for the tip on the HP8500 Ink jet. That

sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. Do you find it dark enough for a

single film?

I'm not good enough with Eagle yet to have confidence in sending a file to

a board house for processing however I would like to. I'm still trying to

wrap my head around the whole CAM processor thing.

I'll get it...eventually.

Thanks again. I've learned quite a few things in the few days I've been on

the forum.

Quote:

Hi Kirk,

First, what system are you using? I use high quality photosensitive

boards.

I was using a laser printer and printing to over head transparency film

but

I found the printer was distorting some of my image slightly and this

was

throwing off my CNC drilling holes.

Now I use an HP 8500 printer (inkjet) and printing to premium inkjet

transparency film (HP C3834A) with perfect results down to very fine

traces

with no loss of detail.

Rob

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Kirk,

Glad I can help.

First, board houses are fine ONCE you have proofed your prototype. Before

that point the cost can add up quickly. Sometimes I run two or three

prototypes before I get exactly what I want.

Right now I'm using GC presensitized boards with excellent results on my

inkjet printer using the film number I listed in my first post.

Also the light source and how long you expose the presensitized board makes

a difference. I use the UV bulbs that are designed specifically for the

boards, usually I expose for 4 to 5  minutes with no problems.

By the way my layouts are so good that my board house asked if they could

use me as a reference for customers who need boards designed, so I'd say I'm

not bad at it.

The other thing I did was make a glass press that allows me to align double

sided boards  exactly in register.

the other thing to watch out for is the boards solution. I use ferric

chloride, persulfate seems to affect and degrade the traces on both my MG

and GC boards.

You can get cheap presensitized boards at Circuit Specialists but there will

be some waste because the presensitized surface doesn't adhere as well as

the GC and MG boards. I do use there developer packs for the boards though

because they are cheap. I've been making boards here and CNC drilling them

for years. It's quick and I save money too. I can run three or four

prototypes here in a day, where my board house will take several days.

Good luck,

Rob

"Kirk Sceviour" <aircrew1@rogers.com> wrote in message

news:iqs55o$lsj$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

Thanks for the quick replies.

 

This answers my question. Thanks for the tip on the HP8500 Ink jet. That

sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. Do you find it dark enough for a

single film?

 

I'm not good enough with Eagle yet to have confidence in sending a file to

a board house for processing however I would like to. I'm still trying to

wrap my head around the whole CAM processor thing.

 

I'll get it...eventually.

 

Thanks again. I've learned quite a few things in the few days I've been on

the forum.

 

Quote:

>> Hi Kirk,

>> First, what system are you using? I use high quality photosensitive

>> boards.

>> I was using a laser printer and printing to over head transparency film

>> but

>> I found the printer was distorting some of my image slightly and this

>> was

>> throwing off my CNC drilling holes.

>> Now I use an HP 8500 printer (inkjet) and printing to premium inkjet

>> transparency film (HP C3834A) with perfect results down to very fine

>> traces

>> with no loss of detail.

>> Rob

 

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the

CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

 

On 05/18/2011 08:10 AM, Rob wrote:

The other thing I did was make a glass press that allows me to align double

sided boards  exactly in register.

...

the other thing to watch out for is the boards solution. I use ferric

chloride,

It's been about 20 years since I made my own boards, and what Rob writes

about hasn't changed much since then.  I took a slightly different

approach to the glass press, though.  After taping the top layer

transparency to the board, I drilled one hole through each of the

registration marks (you could also use a via or PTH) on the transparency

through the board.  I then left drill bits in each of these holes, and

slid the bottom transparency (which already had these same locations

drilled) down over the drill bits from the other side.

The accuracy of this depends entirely on how accurate you are with a

Dremmel drill and a #68 drill bit.  But it worked well for two-sided boards.

persulfate seems to affect and degrade the traces on both my MG

and GC boards.

As for etching, as your FeCl3 solution weakens, you will get more

undercutting of your traces.  The trick I used to extend the life of my

FeCL3 is to use a frothing solution instead of just letting the board

sit in a still solution.

I built a rectangle out of plastic 3/8" square (or round) tube and added

a fitting for a silicone air hose.  I drilled numerous small holes in

the top of this rectangular tube to allow air to pass through.  An air

pump for an aquarium (local pet shop) and some silicone hose completed

the assembly.

I used plastic glue (similar to Testor's model airplane glue) to weld

the rectangular tube to the bottom of the plastic basin holding the

FeCl3.  This will prevent the tube from floating.

With the basin filled with enough FeCl3 to cover the tube and a board, I

turned the air pump on and, as expected, the entire solution was

frothing with bubbles and circulating throughout the bin.

However, what I didn't expect was the time it took to etch copper off a

board.  The first time I used the frothing approach, I left the board in

for about 15 minutes (the same duration I used prior) and wound up with

a sheet of fiberglass with NO copper.  It had all etched away.

After some experimentation, I found that I got a clean etch with minimal

if any undercutting in 3 to 3-1/2 minutes.  So I cut my etch time by

about 80% and extended the life of my etching solution.

Pros:

   - Better quality etches

   - Less time

   - Longer FeCl3 lifetime.

Cons:

   - Use an exhaust fan.  If you don't, you'll soon find rust

     forming on every piece of metal in the room (light switch covers,

     door knobs, faucets, sinks, everything).  Trust me on this.

     This is the voice of experience speaking.

I've been making boards here and CNC drilling them

for years.

The biggest deterrent for me to NOT go back to etching my own prototypes

are vias.  I didn't have a CNC machine at the time, so drilling vias was

a real pain.  But it was nothing compared to time it took to solder a

wire through every single via.

There's also no way I can even come close to matching the quality I get

from a board house.  All the copper is tinned, all the holes are plated,

there's no question about alignment.  For $70 or so I can get 5 boards

delivered in two days from barebonespcb.com.  So it's just not worth my

time and effort to fabricate boards myself.

Hope this helps.

Enjoy,

    - Chuck

Great information here. I have a used Kinsten KVB-30D light box which I

found on line that produces fantastic results. My etching station is a

newly acquired heated Kinsten model with air frothing which works very

well.

Quote:

- Use an exhaust fan. If you don't, you'll soon find rust

forming on every piece of metal in the room (light switch covers,

door knobs, faucets, sinks, everything). Trust me on this.

This is the voice of experience speaking.

I hadn't considered that aspect of my new etcher. I'll have to come up with

something to cover that. Thanks for the tip.

I'm actually populating the first double sided board right now in my shop

(stopped to write this). I aligned the two masks and taped one side. My

light box has a vacuum system to keep the masks tight and everything sucked

down perfectly aligned with the board in the mask sandwich. I would have to

use vias or something to align using the hole method. No room in the light

box.

My etching tank suddenly looks ominous without ventilation. I better

address that right now. There's always something I didn't consider.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the info. I etch in a crock pot with a homemade temperature

regulator and a plastic ring with holes drilled in it hooked up to an

aquarium pump.

I'll check out Barebones, I need some boards for my latest magazine article.

Rob

"Chuck Huber" <chuck.huber@dukepro.com> wrote in message

news:ir0jse$l8m$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

On 05/18/2011 08:10 AM, Rob wrote:

>> The other thing I did was make a glass press that allows me to align

>> double

>> sided boards  exactly in register.

 

...

 

>> the other thing to watch out for is the boards solution. I use ferric

>> chloride,

 

It's been about 20 years since I made my own boards, and what Rob writes

about hasn't changed much since then.  I took a slightly different

approach to the glass press, though.  After taping the top layer

transparency to the board, I drilled one hole through each of the

registration marks (you could also use a via or PTH) on the transparency

through the board.  I then left drill bits in each of these holes, and

slid the bottom transparency (which already had these same locations

drilled) down over the drill bits from the other side.

 

The accuracy of this depends entirely on how accurate you are with a

Dremmel drill and a #68 drill bit.  But it worked well for two-sided

boards.

 

>> persulfate seems to affect and degrade the traces on both my MG

>> and GC boards.

 

As for etching, as your FeCl3 solution weakens, you will get more

undercutting of your traces.  The trick I used to extend the life of my

FeCL3 is to use a frothing solution instead of just letting the board

sit in a still solution.

 

I built a rectangle out of plastic 3/8" square (or round) tube and added

a fitting for a silicone air hose.  I drilled numerous small holes in

the top of this rectangular tube to allow air to pass through.  An air

pump for an aquarium (local pet shop) and some silicone hose completed

the assembly.

 

I used plastic glue (similar to Testor's model airplane glue) to weld

the rectangular tube to the bottom of the plastic basin holding the

FeCl3.  This will prevent the tube from floating.

 

With the basin filled with enough FeCl3 to cover the tube and a board, I

turned the air pump on and, as expected, the entire solution was

frothing with bubbles and circulating throughout the bin.

 

However, what I didn't expect was the time it took to etch copper off a

board.  The first time I used the frothing approach, I left the board in

for about 15 minutes (the same duration I used prior) and wound up with

a sheet of fiberglass with NO copper.  It had all etched away.

 

After some experimentation, I found that I got a clean etch with minimal

if any undercutting in 3 to 3-1/2 minutes.  So I cut my etch time by

about 80% and extended the life of my etching solution.

 

Pros:

  - Better quality etches

  - Less time

  - Longer FeCl3 lifetime.

Cons:

  - Use an exhaust fan.  If you don't, you'll soon find rust

    forming on every piece of metal in the room (light switch covers,

    door knobs, faucets, sinks, everything).  Trust me on this.

    This is the voice of experience speaking.

 

>> I've been making boards here and CNC drilling them

>> for years.

 

The biggest deterrent for me to NOT go back to etching my own prototypes

are vias.  I didn't have a CNC machine at the time, so drilling vias was

a real pain.  But it was nothing compared to time it took to solder a

wire through every single via.

 

There's also no way I can even come close to matching the quality I get

from a board house.  All the copper is tinned, all the holes are plated,

there's no question about alignment.  For $70 or so I can get 5 boards

delivered in two days from barebonespcb.com.  So it's just not worth my

time and effort to fabricate boards myself.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Enjoy,

   - Chuck

You can easily find HP plotters on Ebay, for under $100.  Make sure it has the serial port; interfacing with HPIB might be a problem.

Quote:

If you don't, you'll soon find rust

forming on every piece of metal in the room (light switch covers,

door knobs, faucets, sinks, everything). Trust me on this.

This is the voice of experience speaking.

Many years ago I went & etched a board under my tool pegboard out in the

garage.  The pcb turned out great & I went back to the basement to finish

it up..all was well.  A week or two later I went back to the bench where I

had left the pan of etchant & every tool on the pegboard looked like it had

gone down with the Titanic.  They were all encased with rust & dripping

with rust icicles --they all looked 200 years old.  I never left that stuff

sit around again.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.