New free Altium version coming

On 2014-09-18 22:22:02 +0000, Jorge Garcia said:

You're the first person I've ever heard say Cadsoft is ahead of Altium,

so I appreciate that.

I've been an Eagle fan for over 10 years. v7 is the first time I've

actually really started looking at alternatives.

The v7 feature list is aenemic. You've given the icons a face lift and

added hierarchial schematics, and done some (I hear) great work on the

autorouter, a feature I have used once in that decade.

I'm very interested in understanding what you consider a WOW factor.

That phrase means different things to different people, what does it

mean to you?

Here's my short list:

• Proper/real alpha blending of layers in the board editor

• Removing the old "DOS-era" 16-colour limitation for layers

• Allowing layers to be visually stacked in an arbitrary order (easily

changable with hotkeys)

• A "board flip" mode so I can see what the bottom of the board will

look like easily

• Displaying the net names on the tracks

• Push and Shove routing (NOT as part of an auto-router license)

• Replacing (or augmenting) EagleScript with Python or Lua

• "Live" or "hot" DRC during routing

• More manageable/configurable meander and live update for matched pair length

• Live display of track length during route or with hover-over

• An SMT pad editor that lets me define arbitrary polygons instead of

rectangles only

• Configurable default text size/ratio for labels/nets

• Smarter cross reference display of off-sheet nets

• FULL keyboard acceleration (make every possible action able to be

hot-keyed, not just a few)

• Multi-clipboard buffers

• Proper icon and menu text zoom/DPI support for high-resolution displays

• Library manager (make this work over a network socket so I can write

my own library server software!)

• Gerbmerge (http://sourceforge.net/projects/gerbmerge/) integration

for panelization

... this is the short list. There is no end of the features that you

should be adding to Eagle to just keep up with the competition.

I love Eagle. I want it to succeed. I love the "live" forward/back

annotation. I love that it's multi-platform. I love that you (now

as of v6) have XML file formats. I love your licensing. I love your

price.

I hate your quality control, I hate the lethargic approach to what many

consider basic features for any professional EDA package, and I hate

how you generally dump support for the previous version the moment a

new major release is made.

The v7 update so far is a cruel joke, and a slap in the face to your

loyal users. I truly do hope that this is corrected. I'm really not

sure that I will wait for v8, even if that means running Altium in a VM

or jumping ship to KiCad, which is figuratively breathing down your

neck in terms of features. You have no idea how much it hurts to say

such a thing, but that is how bad this has gotten.

An icon refresh should have been the last thing on your todo list for

a major point release. What were you thinking?

-A.

Am 23.09.2014 19:52, schrieb Mark Sauerwald:

The things that I like about Altium are the library structure and the

amount of metadata that is carried.  My employer maintains our own

corporate component library and the data that is in the library makes it

very easy to generate complete BOMs with part descriptions, Manufacturer

and distributor part numbers, live links to distributor sites so that

you are alerted as to price and availability of components as you place

them etc.

In principle, this can already be done in EAGLE, either with attributes,

or with the HTML descriptions in the library. E.g., my libraries contain

datasheet excerpts and links (see picture). Distributor or BOM

information and other stuff could also be added.

In my opinion, there are only three problems:

  1. The data is not included in the default CadSoft libraries, so you

     have to insert it on your own. But, since one should create one's

     own libraries anyway, that needs to be done manually in more or

     less every program (not only EAGLE). Still, that takes TIME.

  2. Keeping these data current also consumes some time, because, due to

     limitations of EAGLE's ULP language, the GUI for changing these

     data 'en masse' cannot be done in an easy and effective way.

  3. This is not included in the default EAGLE installation. You have

     to program your own GUI and access your data with self-made

     ULPs. Altium (highly probably) provides such things

     out-of-the-box...

Andreas Weidner

Attachments:

"Mark Sauerwald"  skrev i nyhetsmeldingen:

460407348.191411494773185.JavaMail.jive@flmspu-csapp-02.premierfarnell.com

...

In my opinion - the features that I like about Eagle are the way that it

keeps the schematic and the PCB in sync - I work with two screens,

and making a change to the schematic on one screen is immediately

reflected on the other.

I guess Altium cant do that because their philosophy is multiple departments

doing work on same project. This requires some control of whats merged in

and not, but I agree that it causes pain in the one-man projects.

The things that I like about Altium are the library structure and the

amount of metadata that is carried.

I kinda both hate and love extra metadata. I hate it when I don't know what

it is, and I hate when metadata expires (like distributors change,

manufacturer merge and change name). Some data is better when fresh. We do

that work after generating the bom here.

For work I do some high speed designs, and I don't think that I

could do those with Eagle, but Altium is able to handle it.

I do high speed with Eagle. The only think I have to agree with a stackup

config from the manufacturer, then I just follow routing rules, but I agree

I have written some ULP's to check signals for stubs, width (vs layer),

length matching and diff distances (vs layer).

I use the student/hobbyist version of Eagle at home, and Altium for work, so I use both tools regularly.   There are features that I really like about Eagle, and others that I prefer about Altium, and if there were a reasonably priced version of Altium available, I would probably switch to that for home use.    In my opinion - the features that I like about Eagle are the way that it keeps the schematic and the PCB in sync - I work with two screens, and making a change to the schematic on one screen is immediately reflected on the other.   Eagle is also easier to get new components for - either from the community, or generating them from scratch.   I would love it if Altium were to learn these things from Eagle.

The things that I like about Altium are the library structure and the amount of metadata that is carried.  My employer maintains our own corporate component library and the data that is in the library makes it very easy to generate complete BOMs with part descriptions, Manufacturer and distributor part numbers, live links to distributor sites so that you are alerted as to price and availability of components as you place them etc.

Altium also has better tools for generating manufacturing files such as pick & place and drill files.   Altium also provides very nice 3D rendering from within the PCB layout tool, and good (not great) signal integrity tools.   For work I do some high speed designs, and I don't think that I could do those with Eagle, but Altium is able to handle it.

The main reason that I use Eagle is that for the kind of projects that I do at home, the hobbyist version of eagle does what I need for a very reasonable price.   If I wanted to upgrade to Eagle Professional, it is still affordable for a single seat.   To purchase a minimal configuration of Altium is 4X the cost of Eagle Professional, and requires an annual maintenance contract so it is out of the question for anything other than professional use.

Thanks Jorge,

Here's some screenshots of the new FREE Altium app courtesy of Dave

Jones over at the EEVblog.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=109810;image

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=109812;image

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=109814;image

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=109816;image

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=109818;image

Ian.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 18:34:55 -0400, Jorge Garcia

<jorge@cadsoftusa.com> wrote:

Hi Ian,

 

Thanks for posting this, we're always pushing as hard as we can. You

won't have to wait for V8, we're going to be making some improvements to

V7 now.

 

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

 

Jorge Garcia

"Jorge Garcia"  skrev i nyhetsmeldingen: lvfmqv$cdn$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de ...

V7 will be receiving some real feature upgrades in the near future, what

they are I don't know yet but I've sent customer feedback along with some

personal commentary to management. Let see what direction it goes.

I would love to get a list of the upgrades you mention, however I can

understand you should not be waving around with the features you miss or are

planning to do, but seeing the result of 6.x and 7.x, I suspect that Cadsoft

doesn't focus on the real issues that are holding Eagle back.

I'm very interested in understanding what you consider a WOW factor.

I know the question was not for me, but I cant resist to post a list of

outstanding issues from the top of my head (I may have left out important

ones), in no particular order of significance.

Hard and middle-hard ones:

-Graphics are slow for more advanced boards. It takes time to draw a big

board and I know there is a big potential compared to competing solutions.

Im sure you can do a lot of exiting fast graphics things even with QT.

-Polygon fillings need to be redone. It should calculate outlines on the

fly; when you add a via, eagles internal data should make the hole, not when

you press ratsnest. Also, there is no need for the wysiwyg wire fill mode.

Make them flashed, at least as an option. The CAM processor could do wire

fill as an option. It would be nice to get rid of the ratsnest function

totally.

-Live DRC would be nice. It requires some heavy background sorting while

drawing, but there is a lot of unused cpu power available.

-Clean up layer handling. Fixed numbered layers causes some issues like when

you want to swap a few layers around, or future expansion to >16 layer of

copper.

-Difftools! Graphic diff tools too! With version control.

-Interactive tutorials for the noobs.

-3d is nice to have, but will need support from a library editor that can

draw basic models as well as import 3d models. I'd put this low down on the

list.

-Proper hierarcy. Sch/pcb editor and library editor should approach each

other. Any design should be able to become a part.

Easy fixes:

-Fix the diff routing vs different layer parameters

-Redo buses with proper bustaps. Buses should have a short name and contain

many signals defined by the signals connected to it with a bus tap.

-Make page connectors as a proper primitive

-ERC needs to be redone (ref earlier discussions about multiple supply pins

on parts like voltage regulators). Turn symbolic power devices into page

connectors.

-Unconnected pins in schematic should get some symbol when unconnected, and

maybe even if it fails a live ERC check.

-Schematic wire-end snap to offgrid pins would helps some noobs.

-Mirrored view of board

-Persistant show/hilight/outline

-Mouseover signal information (in status bar, or tooltip text)

-Some leftover airwires happen (I think this appeared in some 5.x version a

long time ago). I have to do manual ratsnest to get rid of them.

-Single file projects

-get rid of the .epf or eaglerc files and replace them with some user

preference dialogue.

-Saveable DRC/ERC list

-More detailed explanation of what parameter failed on selected DRC issue.

That said, Eagle still has some powerful features, like the ULP interface

and great efficient support. And still nicely priced with no free running

tab.

Besides, I think the free Altium will be for non commercial use only, and

every time I try to use it, I end up tearing my hair off

If you (Jorge) want to ask about details or discuss any of these issues with

me personally, you should have my email in your mailbox

The biggest problem of Altium is that it need MS windows. For me, this is a no-go.

Second, I like the XML-based data, this way I can comfortably use Git for backup.

Third, I like the powerfull User Language Programming (ULP).

Fourth, I like the commandline of Eagle. The less you need the mouse, the faster you work.

I have used Altium for one year (on windows). It's not bad. But it's way overpriced and not as stable as Eagle.

Also, Eagle starts much faster, has a more snappier interface, and does not require a dongle or internet connection.

Just my opinion.

For me as a V6-prof user, the only things missing so far are:

- the possibility to connect a via or pad to multiple nets without raising a DRC-error (used to connect for example analog ground and digital ground)

- a report when updating the schematic/layout from the libraries.

- mirror view in the layout editor

Regards,

Joop

Am 19.09.2014 00:18, schrieb Jorge Garcia:

  > Hi Jorge,

Some lone awaiting functions like 3D as import and export.

it is hard to explain the desinger why i can't export step or an other

3D format and import his 3D -Model of the device.

 

Werner

 

Hi Werner,

 

I hope you're doing well. 3D Export is now possible in EAGLE with the

release of V7. You would first export the IDF files using the

EagleIDFExporter.ulp that ships with EAGLE. These files are course 3D

models that represent components as Cubes whose sizes are the extreme

dimensions of the components.

 

The IDF files can be imported into a tool like Solidworks or Alibre, and

you can manually swap out the cubes with exact step models. That's not

the recommended approach though.

 

We've partnered with a company named Simplified Solutions, that has

developed a tool that maps most of EAGLE default library to vetted step

models and allows user to import their own 3D models for use with

EAGLE's IDF output. With an hour or two of work you can obtain a precise

step model of your EAGLE design using their services.

 

Currently, they charge $300 for a 3 year license for 1 user. That gives

you unlimited use of their tools. It's not an integrated 3D export but

it's a way. I've used it personally and it works very well. We're having

a webinar with them next week you may want to check it out.

 

As EAGLE currently stands, I don't see much of a point to a 3D import.

Usually we just need the board outline which can be provided as a DXF

that EAGLE can import.

 

hth,

Jorge Garcia

 

 

Hi Jorge,

thanks for the answer.

Iam using the 6.5.4 pro (3User) here at the company.

The "harware" designer comes with his solidworks files of

a camreacase to me. "here ist the design, there and there you have space

for the pcb". In this little and not rectangle boxes is it

difficult to put the things on the right place.

So its necessary to import the design files to check the dimensions in

all 3 directions to fit in the pcb.

Its nice to here there are som 3th party tools to cheat eagle, but it

would a "WOW" if it comes bulid in from Cadsoft.

I have some problems to explain my boss why to invest in a software(v7)

and money to a 3thparty tool and it would not work in both direction.

He is asking me for a software that can 3D in and out.

Iam at eagle since nearly 20 years. In the "good old times"

there was no 3D and dxf export would enough , but the world has spin

forward. (the dxf import to eagle is, as i remember, a 3th party tool...)

There is no WOW.

thanks

Werner

On 9/18/2014 6:43 AM, Ian Johnston wrote:

The free Altium version has the possibility of pulling a LOT of users

away from EAGLE PCB and the open-source community jumping ship over

time................It's all for CadSoft to lose.

 

I am still using V6.6 (pro) as I don't see the point in upgrading for

all that V7 offers. I'd like to see a real WOW factor on the next

release of EAGLE PCB which will make me spend my money and keep CadSoft

ahead of Altium.

Hi Ian,

You're the first person I've ever heard say Cadsoft is ahead of Altium,

so I appreciate that.

V7 will be receiving some real feature upgrades in the near future, what

they are I don't know yet but I've sent customer feedback along with

some personal commentary to management. Let see what direction it goes.

I'm very interested in understanding what you consider a WOW factor.

That phrase means different things to different people, what does it

mean to you?

Jorge Garcia

On 9/18/2014 6:43 AM, Ian Johnston wrote:

The free Altium version has the possibility of pulling a LOT of users

away from EAGLE PCB and the open-source community jumping ship over

time................It's all for CadSoft to lose.

 

I am still using V6.6 (pro) as I don't see the point in upgrading for

all that V7 offers. I'd like to see a real WOW factor on the next

release of EAGLE PCB which will make me spend my money and keep CadSoft

ahead of Altium.

Hi Ian,

You're the first person I've ever heard say Cadsoft is ahead of Altium,

so I appreciate that.

V7 will be receiving some real feature upgrades in the near future, what

they are I don't know yet but I've sent customer feedback along with

some personal commentary to management. Let see what direction it goes.

I'm very interested in understanding what you consider a WOW factor.

That phrase means different things to different people, what does it

mean to you?

Jorge Garcia