Drill Sizes

analog wrote on Mon, 14 December 2009 19:41

What do the drill sizes in the menus mean?  Actual drill or plated

size?

You should be specifying final hole size, and that's what most board houses

expect.  Check with your board house to be sure though.

Quote:

Why are they expressed to so many decimal places?

Huh?  What would you prefer, all holes rounded to 50 mils?

Quote:

I need a .061 hole for a staked turret terminal; do I uese that .063xxx

drill size?

You should always leave a little slop for inaccurracy of the final hole,

and you need some clearance to fit the pin thru the hole.  If you figure

the resulting hole will be +-4 mils from what you specify, then you should

be pretty safe.

The common sizes near what you want are .061 and .067 inches.  Obviously

061 is too small if you need the final hole to be at least .061 in

diameter.  Therefore, .067 should work, assuming you already left clearance

for the part in your .061 spec.

Quote:

What do I wind up with if I just type in .061?

A little more than .060 and a little less than .062.

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

Doncha just love the sarcastic answers one gets in Usenet...a good reason it is

dying a slow death.

Have you not noticed those sizes in Eagle 5.6, to like six or eight decimal

places: .0 63xxxx.  It may be an artifact of the internal conversion from mm to

inches, but if it is that is profoundly dumb (since the grid is actually in

inches).

A little basic information in an otherwise atrocious manual would be nice...

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:15:26 -0500, Olin Lathrop <eagle@embedinc.com> wrote:

analog wrote on Mon, 14 December 2009 19:41

What do the drill sizes in the menus mean?  Actual drill or plated

size?

 

You should be specifying final hole size, and that's what most board houses

expect.  Check with your board house to be sure though.

 

Quote:

Why are they expressed to so many decimal places?

 

Huh?  What would you prefer, all holes rounded to 50 mils?

 

Quote:

I need a .061 hole for a staked turret terminal; do I uese that .063xxx

drill size?

 

You should always leave a little slop for inaccurracy of the final hole,

and you need some clearance to fit the pin thru the hole.  If you figure

the resulting hole will be +-4 mils from what you specify, then you should

be pretty safe.

 

The common sizes near what you want are .061 and .067 inches.  Obviously

061 is too small if you need the final hole to be at least .061 in

diameter.  Therefore, .067 should work, assuming you already left clearance

for the part in your .061 spec.

 

Quote:

What do I wind up with if I just type in .061?

 

A little more than .060 and a little less than .062.

analog wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 13:50

Doncha just love the sarcastic answers one gets in Usenet.

It's not Usenet, it's the quality of the questions.

Quote:

Have you not noticed those sizes in Eagle 5.6, to like six or eight

decimal places: .0 63xxxx.  It may be an artifact of the internal

conversion from mm to inches, but if it is that is profoundly dumb (since

the grid is actually in inches).

I think there is a reasonable explanation, but you've already made up your

mind so trying to discuss it would be a pointless.

Quote:

A little basic information in an otherwise atrocious manual would be

nice...

Since you've already decided that Eagle is "profoundly dumb" and the manual

"atrocious", why are you still trying to use it?

Personally I find Eagle a generally well thought out and very useful

program, especially considering it's price compared to meaningful

alternatives.  I'm happy to discuss aspects of Eagle, but not with people

who just want to bash it and not learn or solve anything.

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

As they say in Get Shorty, "You don't know me, you just think you do".

I come in here for advice, and you flame me.  It is you who are closed minded,

not me.  I happen to like Eagle, but the rotten documentation makes it a little

difficult to learn.  The documentation was clearly created by folks for whom

English is a foreign language.  To call them poorly done is an insult to poorly

done things everywhere.  Since I paid cashey money for my copy, I have a right

to ***.

OK, I'll bite, what is a remotely rational explanation for the long drill sizes?

Do you understand the concept of sig figs?

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:52:54 -0500, Olin Lathrop <eagle@embedinc.com> wrote:

analog wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 13:50

Doncha just love the sarcastic answers one gets in Usenet.

 

It's not Usenet, it's the quality of the questions.

 

Quote:

Have you not noticed those sizes in Eagle 5.6, to like six or eight

decimal places: .0 63xxxx.  It may be an artifact of the internal

conversion from mm to inches, but if it is that is profoundly dumb (since

the grid is actually in inches).

 

I think there is a reasonable explanation, but you've already made up your

mind so trying to discuss it would be a pointless.

 

Quote:

A little basic information in an otherwise atrocious manual would be

nice...

 

Since you've already decided that Eagle is "profoundly dumb" and the manual

"atrocious", why are you still trying to use it?

 

Personally I find Eagle a generally well thought out and very useful

program, especially considering it's price compared to meaningful

alternatives.  I'm happy to discuss aspects of Eagle, but not with people

who just want to bash it and not learn or solve anything.

analog@logwell.com wrote:

As they say in Get Shorty, "You don't know me, you just think you do".

First of all, you are the one with a less than stellar attitude here.

You asked a question and it was answered. Correctly, if I may say so.

I come in here for advice, and you flame me.

The answer to you question was certainly not a flame. It was in fact

polite and factually correct.

Since I paid cashey money for my copy, I have a right to ***.

Again with the attitude. Tone it down a notch or two. You might get

better report with people.

OK, I'll bite, what is a remotely rational explanation for the long drill sizes?

You can choose a size from the list, or you can enter a size directly.

What's to explain about it?

Once again: the actual drill size you have to specify depends on your

board house. They are in charge of plating and miscellaneous tolerances.

In Eagle you specify the final drill size. Your board house may very

well need a number that is not the actual drill size.

Bob

Like I said, Usenet is dying for good reason.  Where I come from the original

responder was rude and made unfounded assumptions about my attitude.

Cadsoft says we see all those ridiculous drill size digits when viewing in

inches because the program thinks in millimeters, and they want to guarantee

accurate conversions.  Problem is the grid is in inches, so it has to be

converted to millimeters to begin with.  Yes, the world is metric, but pin

spacings are still done the good old Americun way.  So, the long string of

decimal places on some of the inch drill sizes is in fact nutso, aside from

violating sig fig sensibilities.  Does it matter? Not much, but it is

unappealing to anyone with an engineering background.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:14:39 +0100, Bob <Bob@invalid.invalid> wrote:

analog@logwell.com wrote:

As they say in Get Shorty, "You don't know me, you just think you do".

 

First of all, you are the one with a less than stellar attitude here.

You asked a question and it was answered. Correctly, if I may say so.

 

I come in here for advice, and you flame me.

 

The answer to you question was certainly not a flame. It was in fact

polite and factually correct.

 

Since I paid cashey money for my copy, I have a right to ***.

 

Again with the attitude. Tone it down a notch or two. You might get

better report with people.

 

OK, I'll bite, what is a remotely rational explanation for the long drill sizes?

 

You can choose a size from the list, or you can enter a size directly.

What's to explain about it?

 

Once again: the actual drill size you have to specify depends on your

board house. They are in charge of plating and miscellaneous tolerances.

In Eagle you specify the final drill size. Your board house may very

well need a number that is not the actual drill size.

 

Bob

 

analog wrote on Wed, 16 December 2009 12:06

and made unfounded assumptions about my attitude.

Try not complaining, instead ask why with a open mind.  Deciding something

is "ridiculous" and "nutso" before getting all the reasons behind it is a

unproductive attitude and will annoy those you seek help from.

In any case, complaining to fellow users is pointless since there is

nothing we can do about it even if we did agree with you.

-

I just tried a experiment in Eagle.  I did a CHANGE DRILL to see the list

of sizes that I think you are so offended by because they were listed with

lots of digits.  Then I did SET and went to the DRILL tab and defined a

custom size like 20mil.  That showed up in the list as ".02" as expected.

However, when I went back to CHANGE DRILL, this size didn't appear in the

list.  I thought that's what the SET drill-tab was for, but apparently

there's more to it than that.

Whether that's a bug, or more likely, my misconception due to not having

read the help on the subject, I don't think it's a problem either way.  I

wasn't even aware of the many decimal places since there is very little

reason to ever do a CHANGE DRILL and then pick a size from the drop down

menu.  Drill sizes for thru hole pads belong in the libraries.  Drill sizes

for vias  should come from the net class with some input from the DRC

settings.

There are only two cases I can think of right now where you'd enter a drill

size manually.  One is when you're manually routing.  Eagle doesn't seem to

default the drill size from the net class as perhaps it should.  Second is

if your board needs other holes, like for mounting.  In both those cases

I've always just typed "cha drill xxx".  You know the size you want, so

it's quicker and easier to just enter it than fumble around in a dialog

looking for it or something close.

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

I don't buy that it is somehow a problem to complain about annoyances.  If I

have offended you, I am sorry.

I ran into the large number of decimal place thing while creating my own custom

libraries.  It is nutso, no matter what kind of smiley face you want to paint on

it.  Is it a serious problem, or a real problem at all?  Probably not.

I want to make it clear that I like Eagle and would recommend it to others in my

industry with certain caveats.  One caveat would be to be prepared for some odd

behaviors, and not to expect much from the sadly written documentation,

including the help screens.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:41:54 -0500, Olin Lathrop <eagle@embedinc.com> wrote:

analog wrote on Wed, 16 December 2009 12:06

and made unfounded assumptions about my attitude.

 

Try not complaining, instead ask why with a open mind.  Deciding something

is "ridiculous" and "nutso" before getting all the reasons behind it is a

unproductive attitude and will annoy those you seek help from.

 

In any case, complaining to fellow users is pointless since there is

nothing we can do about it even if we did agree with you.

 

-----------------

 

I just tried a experiment in Eagle.  I did a CHANGE DRILL to see the list

of sizes that I think you are so offended by because they were listed with

lots of digits.  Then I did SET and went to the DRILL tab and defined a

custom size like 20mil.  That showed up in the list as ".02" as expected.

However, when I went back to CHANGE DRILL, this size didn't appear in the

list.  I thought that's what the SET drill-tab was for, but apparently

there's more to it than that.

 

Whether that's a bug, or more likely, my misconception due to not having

read the help on the subject, I don't think it's a problem either way.  I

wasn't even aware of the many decimal places since there is very little

reason to ever do a CHANGE DRILL and then pick a size from the drop down

menu.  Drill sizes for thru hole pads belong in the libraries.  Drill sizes

for vias  should come from the net class with some input from the DRC

settings.

 

There are only two cases I can think of right now where you'd enter a drill

size manually.  One is when you're manually routing.  Eagle doesn't seem to

default the drill size from the net class as perhaps it should.  Second is

if your board needs other holes, like for mounting.  In both those cases

I've always just typed "cha drill xxx".  You know the size you want, so

it's quicker and easier to just enter it than fumble around in a dialog

looking for it or something close.

analog wrote on Wed, 16 December 2009 16:26

I don't buy that it is somehow a problem to complain about annoyances.

If I

have offended you, I am sorry.

There is big a difference between a reasoned discussion about why you think

a feature is undesirable and a childish emotional outburst simply whining

about it.

Quote:

Is it a serious problem, or a real problem at all?  Probably not.

Exactly.  Just type in whatever size you want.  That's quicker than

selecting it from a list with the clickety-click interface anyway.  As I

mentioned, I wasn't even aware the drop down menu had all those fraction

digits because I haven't found a situation where its more useful than just

entering the desired value directly.

Quote:

One caveat would be to be prepared for some odd

behaviors,

Just like any large and complex piece of software, with Eagle being no

exception.

Quote:

and not to expect much from the sadly written documentation,

including the help screens.

There you go again.

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

Quote:

and not to expect much from the sadly written documentation,

including the help screens.

 

There you go again.

There I go again?  Without a doubt Eagle has the worst documentation I have seen

for a major piece of software in a decade or more.  It is written in pidgin

English in a strange idiom, and is woefully incomplete.  The so-called

documentation sucks badly (I use so-called here as it is used in the manual in

describing aliases, a wholly inappropriate descriptor).  Are you telling me I am

wrong, and that the manual is a brilliant piece of work?  Or are you telling me

I must not complain about something I paid actual money for and that does not

meet expectations?  The latter would be downright un-American!