Eagle and electronics peer to peer forums

I know what you are saying, nntp is dying a slow death. It's too bad

because it certainly does provide a good medium for some things. But it

has its limitations too and these days companies are starting to block port

119 for security reasons since very few people use it.

 

CadSoft has always sold their licenses on the basis that free support could

be had from the EAGLE community and CadSoft staff through their nntp

servers. I take it as a mark of their integrity that they are continuing

to fulfill that promise even though there are pressures to change.

 

I hope that eaglecentral provides a nice middle ground--if you want to use

nntp you still can but for those who prefer the web you can do that to.

And we can all participate in the same discussions.

 

James.

I MUCH prefer NNTP because I set my client to download ALL content for

off-line viewing. This way I have a very good archive that I can search

whether online of offline - and I have to be mobile a lot, sometimes

without any service through either WiFi or 3G.

Also since I have everything download, NNTP is by far faster. With

forums you HAVE to be online. Yes forums have some very nice features,

but for me, NNTP is far better for support questions.

I think the largest issue with NNTP is that a LOT of people have no idea

what it is or how to set it up. Most people now think email is yahoo or

gmail or msn and have no idea what a mail client is, let alone a

newsgroup or news reader.

My 2cents

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Quote:

The post editor here is much better, although I've definitely used

better.  At least with this one the formatting seems to work as

documented.  My main problem with it is that some normal keyboard

sequences don't work as they do everywhere else.  You have to use the

mouse for certain things, and I hate that because it really breaks up

the thought flow and is so much slower.  I also don't like how you have

to wait for the whole page to load before you can start editing.  If

you don't, the cursor gets poofed away a little while in.

 

Do you have any specific examples?  I'll take it under advisement.

When you click the QUOTE button at the bottom of a post to respond to that

post, you get a new page that includes the edit window I'm now typing in.

So far so good.  However it takes what seems like forever for all the silly

little smiley faces and toolbar icons to load.  That by itself wouldn't be

so bad since I don't use them.  However, if you try to start typing before

they are done loading, the cursor gets poofed someplace else when it is

done loading.  I roughly timed by counting how long this took when I got

here, and it was about 7 seconds.  That's not much in the scheme of things,

but plenty long enough to be annoying, especially when all you can do is

watch it paint the silly fluff you're never going to use.

As for the keyboard usage problem, I can think of two off the top of my

head.  In order to delete parts of the post you are replying to, the

natural thing is to position the cursor to the start of the text to delete,

then hold down SHIFT and use the arrow keys to highlight the text to cut.

That works as expected.  However, most all editors now do a cut by ALT-E T.

That doesn't work and cancels your selection so you have to do it all over

again.  I found that DELETE does work, and I've mostly trained my fingers

to use that after selecting text for deletion.

Another example is copying text after selecting it.  Again, most all

editors use ALT-E C for that.  I haven't found a way to copy selected text

(write it to the past buffer) other than by having to drag the mouse over

it, right click (I think), and select COPY or something.  That may be fine

for the computer challenged, but it's annoying for those that know how to

type and therefore keep their hands on the keyboard.

Another problem is that there is no obvious way to put the focus back into

the edit window other than using the mouse after doing something external,

like PREVIEW.

Quote:

I use this enough to know the markup codes and just enter them by hand

from the keyboard.

I do too.  QUOTE, I and URL are the ones I use most.  Occasionally I have

to look them up.  Fortunately you can do this without losing the contents

of your edit window, but it's not obvious this help is there.  It turns out

you have to click on (in this case having to click is reasonable) "BBcode

is on", which wasn't obvious to me at all.  Since it's making a special

point about BBcode (whatever that is, at least at first you don't know)

being on, I thought that would have something to do with toggling it off.

A better link name would be "Formatting help" or something like that.  Use

names from the point of view of the user, not the writer of the forum

software.

Quote:

I very rarely use the mouse while posting.

Not rare enough for me.

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If you click on the link "BBcode in on" to the left of the text window

during posting it will open a new tab (or window) with a description of

all the markup you can do.

Yeah, I finally found that as noted above.

Quote:

CadSoft has always sold their licenses on the basis that free support

could be had from the EAGLE community and CadSoft staff through their

nntp servers.  I take it as a mark of their integrity that they are

continuing to fulfill that promise even though there are pressures to

change.

Continuing to provide a means for free public support is a good thing,

clinging to NNTP is a bad thing.

Quote:

I hope that eaglecentral provides a nice middle ground--if you want to

use nntp you still can but for those who prefer the web you can do that

to.  And we can all participate in the same discussions.

I applaud you for making this web forum available, but I also think CadSoft

should have done this on their own long ago and ditched NNTP.  Look at the

compromises you had to make in this web interface to deal with

compatibility with NNTP users.  The different quoting styles make rather a

mess.  It seems that when I surround text here with QUOTE.../QUOTE it gets

translated to a text block with leading "> ".  Of course the reverse

doesn't work so well.  And everything from the NNTP side comes back here

fixed width lines, which means things don't get re-flowed when edits are

done.  I'm not blaming you for these issues.  I think you've done a great

job providing this interface and making it work, but it would be better if

it didn't have to consider NNTP issues.

On the flip side, a problem of a web interface is that it gives web

designers too much opportunity to add silly fluff just because they can.

For example, above this edit window are 14 different message icons I can

select.  Not only is that silly because at best nobody will use one, but I

also have to wait for all of them to load their separate little images

before I can start typing.  Think about it.  What information am I supposed

to get from someone else using one of the message icons?  Oh, his question

is urgent, well gee, I'd better drop everything right this instance to

provide a free response.  I don't think so.

The same goes for the toolbar of 13 different formatting thingies.  I can

guess what some of them mean, but people here are grownups and should be

able to type in your BBcodes when needed.  Just two of them (QUOTE URL)

will do ya for most messages, plus maybe the occasional B and I.

Quote:

Of course this whole discussion is going to be wiped out in a few days

since it's in the test forum

Not any more.

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have any specific examples?  I'll take it under advisement.

 

When you click the QUOTE button at the bottom of a post to respond to

that post, you get a new page that includes the edit window I'm now

typing in.  So far so good.  However it takes what seems like forever for

all the silly little smiley faces and toolbar icons to load.  That by

itself wouldn't be so bad since I don't use them.  However, if you try to

start typing before they are done loading, the cursor gets poofed

someplace else when it is done loading.  I roughly timed by counting how

long this took when I got here, and it was about 7 seconds.  That's not

much in the scheme of things, but plenty long enough to be annoying,

especially when all you can do is watch it paint the silly fluff you're

never going to use.

7 seconds!  What browser are you using?  I'm using Chrome and they load

instantly, less than a second for sure.

Quote:

As for the keyboard usage problem, I can think of two off the top of my

head.  In order to delete parts of the post you are replying to, the

natural thing is to position the cursor to the start of the text to

delete, then hold down SHIFT and use the arrow keys to highlight the text

to cut.  That works as expected.  However, most all editors now do a cut

by ALT-E T.  That doesn't work and cancels your selection so you have to

do it all over again.  I found that DELETE does work, and I've mostly

trained my fingers to use that after selecting text for deletion.

 

Another example is copying text after selecting it.  Again, most all

editors use ALT-E C for that.  I haven't found a way to copy selected

text (write it to the past buffer) other than by having to drag the mouse

over it, right click (I think), and select COPY or something.  That may

be fine for the computer challenged, but it's annoying for those that

know how to type and therefore keep their hands on the keyboard.

I've never heard of ALT-E C and T.  I use CTRL-C and CTLR-V and that works

fine.  Again, is this a browser issue?  That is just a text box and the

client/OS handles that sort of thing I think (no expert on this though).

Quote:

Another problem is that there is no obvious way to put the focus back

into the edit window other than using the mouse after doing something

external, like PREVIEW.

That is true.  I think Tab will work eventually but you have to cycle

through a bunch of other elements and it takes too long, the mouse is

actually faster.  Adding focus back to the text entry after preview is a

good idea.  I'll add it to the list.

Quote:

It turns out you have to click on (in this case having to click is

reasonable) "BBcode is on", which wasn't obvious to me at all.  Since

it's making a special point about BBcode (whatever that is, at least at

first you don't know) being on, I thought that would have something to do

with toggling it off.  A better link name would be "Formatting help" or

something like that.  Use names from the point of view of the user, not

the writer of the forum software.

Good point.  I'll add that to the list too.

Quote:

The same goes for the toolbar of 13 different formatting thingies.  I

can guess what some of them mean, but people here are grownups and should

be able to type in your BBcodes when needed.  Just two of them (QUOTE

URL) will do ya for most messages, plus maybe the occasional B and I.

I think this comes down to preference.  Many of us who have been around

awhile and know what a command line is would prefer to use direct markup

syntax and not touch the mouse.  But there are an awful lot of people (even

engineers) who don't want to touch that and just want to point and click.

So, if those icons and buttons would load faster for you so that it wasn't

an issue, then you could just ignore it and those who would like it have

that option.  Perhaps an personal option for your account to turn off the

rendering of those elements would be useful, I'll look into that too.

Quote:

Quote:

Of course this whole discussion is going to be wiped out in a few

days since it's in the test forum

 

Not any more.

I saw that

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

email:  james@eaglecentral.ca

web: http://www.eaglecentral.ca

Specialising in CadSoft EAGLE

• Online Sales to North America

• Electronic Design Services

• EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

James Morrison wrote on Sat, 13 February 2010 12:29

7 seconds!  What browser are you using?

Standard off the shelf MSIE.  I'm frequently on 3 different systems, one is

Windows 2000, one is Windows XP Pro, and the other Windows XP Home.  They

all have different versions of IE, and they all do basically the same

thing.  I'm on the Win2000 system now, which is where I counted the 7

seconds.  This systems is connected to the internet via DSL, which is the

slowest connection of the three.  Maybe the other two are a little faster,

but I know the issue is still there.

Quote:

I've never heard of ALT-E C and T.  I use CTRL-C and CTLR-V and that

works fine.

Oh yeah, CTRL-C should work too.  I'll try to get used to that.  CTRL-V is

usually a paste though, not a cut or copy.

Quote:

That is true.  I think Tab will work eventually but you have to cycle

through a bunch of other elements and it takes too long, the mouse is

actually faster.  Adding focus back to the text entry after preview is a

good idea.  I'll add it to the list.

I'm not trying to make busywork for you or asking it to be changed.  I

wouldn't mind if it is, but this started as a discussion of the horribly

bad user interface of Element-14.  It wasn't meant as a complaint or a

request to change anything.  You've done your part by making this forum

available.

Quote:

I think this comes down to preference.  Many of us who have been around

awhile and know what a command line is would prefer to use direct markup

syntax and not touch the mouse.  But there are an awful lot of people

(even engineers) who don't want to touch that and just want to point and

click.

Yeah, I know.  It's hard to have respect for people like that, but I know

they exist in great numbers.  Too bad one can't hang up a sign "The

computer-illiterate need not apply", but that wouldn't be PC nowadays and

too many of the bozos have enough clout that you can't afford to piss them

all off.

Quote:

So, if those icons and buttons would load faster for you so that it

wasn't an issue, then you could just ignore it and those who would like

it have that option.

Right.

Quote:

Perhaps an personal option for your account to turn off the rendering

of those elements would be useful, I'll look into that too.

Again, I'm not trying to make work for you and not really asking for any

changes, only reporting my experience and impressions.  Do what you want

with that information.  I would prefer it to be changed, but can live with

how it is now.  After all, I'm still here.  I am not over at Element-14

anymore or using the CadSoft NNTP feed because those really are too painful

to bother with.

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

Hi Olin,

No worries about your suggestions--I did ask for them.  I'm not saying I'll

fix that by tomorrow but over time I will see what I can do.  I'm always

looking to make it better.  And this forum software is used by others too

and they could benefit as well so I like to contribute ideas back to that

community.  I'm no php programmer so my skills there are limited, just

enough to be dangerous.

Cheers,

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

email:  james@eaglecentral.ca

web: http://www.eaglecentral.ca

Specialising in CadSoft EAGLE

• Online Sales to North America

• Electronic Design Services

• EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

--

Browser access to CadSoft Support Forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

The day NNTP support is removed, I will cry a bit and probablt not care as

much helping, or even ask for help.

My 2cents..

Morten Leikvoll schrieb:

The day NNTP support is removed, I will cry a bit and probablt not care as

much helping, or even ask for help.

Me too. I won't spend/waste any time for a forum.

Tilmann

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

The day NNTP support is removed, I will cry a bit and probablt not care as

much helping, or even ask for help.

in the moment I browse over the eagle news groups at least once a day.

I won't bother with doing so via a web forum.

--

Lorenz

Tilmann Reh schrieb:

Morten Leikvoll schrieb:

 

The day NNTP support is removed, I will cry a bit and probablt not care as

much helping, or even ask for help.

 

Me too. I won't spend/waste any time for a forum.

 

Tilmann

You can say that again!

--

Gruß / regards

Joern

Lorenz <lorenznl@yahoo.com> wrote:

Morten Leikvoll wrote:

>The day NNTP support is removed, I will cry a bit and probablt not care as

>much helping, or even ask for help.

in the moment I browse over the eagle news groups at least once a day.

I won't bother with doing so via a web forum.

Farnell, please keep NNTP!

--

Uwe Bonnes                bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt

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Tel. 06151 162516 -

Fax. 06151 164321 -