Why???

Element 14 User whined on Wed, 02 November 2011 16:43

3. In the Latout Editor, why can't I place parts on the bottom

layer????

Because you haven't read the manual, apparently.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Rick Comeau wrote:

I have used other cad and PCB software, and most have some problems

with their UI and command set. BUT Eagle has by far the worst UI, and

the worst command set I have come across. There is always a learning

curve, but some things should be intuitive. Some examples mostly for

the Library Editor:

 

1. why are symbols not broken out in the library so I can copy them

for a new part???

 

2. Speaking of copying, why can't I edit(modify) an existing part,

and then save it as a new part???

 

3. In the Latout Editor, why can't I place parts on the bottom

layer????

 

>

These are just a few of the things that, if they exist, are hidden

very well!!

 

This software may produce excellent PCBs but not worth the

headaches!!!

 

Rick

Hi Rick

Over the years there have been quite a number of similar posts to yours so

you may gain some comfort reading them.

I see you have posted at Element14 which is a web portal (still under

development) to the official news group.  If you stick with Eagle you will

find a better experience using the web portal at

http://www.eaglecentral.ca/forums/ or use a newsreader to get to

news.cadsoft.de

I have been thinking about the reoccurring use of "intuitive" lately and

believe it often means, in a computer context, 'the way I have been

conditioned by the other programmes I have used". For many this means ' the

way I have been conditioned by Microsoft's methods for doing things." It's

hard for us to learn a new action  but once done,  all's well.

There are a number of actions/names which are different in Eagle. Such as

CUT meaning COPY and there are others. The manual and tutorial are  your

friends,  found in the .doc folder. A common mistake by many is to assume if

you are familiar with a 'Drawing' programme it will be easy to use Eagle.

Not so, so read  the manual, do all the Tutorials you can find.on the web.

As for headaches it depends on the kind of headache you desire. It appears

to be a case of choose your PCB CAD program and choose your headache. They

all have issues of some kind be it features, cost considerations or methods

to achieve an end.

True, the library does have some ease of management issues but we are lead

to believe the pending next release will address some of them.

No, I don't work for CadSoft, I just think the software is fun once you know

it.

Hope this helps

Warren

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Viewed / responded via the newsgroup at

news.cadsoft.de

Olin Lathrop wrote:

Element 14 User whined on Wed, 02 November 2011 16:43

>> 3. In the Latout Editor, why can't I place parts on the bottom

>> layer????

 

Because you haven't read the manual, apparently.

 

Wow, what a worthless comment.

I am really tired of comments that state that you should first memorize

the "manual" before asking questions.  Sadly, not everyone has the time

to search for hours through the poorly organized Eagle documentation.

Please offer constructive answers or don't waste the poster's or the

rest of our valuable time.

Rick Comeau <communitymanager@premierfarnell.com> wrote:

I have used other cad and PCB software, and most have some problems with

their UI and command set.

I remember having similar thoughts my first hours of use. Now I can juggle

it like a dream.

While the programs you may know may require you to pick an object, then an

action on the selected object, Eagle does it the other way.

To get started faster I would recommend to study all mouse gesture

functions (all 3 mouse buttons, the modifier keys, and the combination of

them), the group function and the context menu for objects (wich kinda

tries to simulate the object first approach)

Am 03.11.2011 06:12, schrieb Marvin Dawson:

Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> Element 14 User whined on Wed, 02 November 2011 16:43

>>> 3. In the Latout Editor, why can't I place parts on the bottom

>>> layer????

>>

>> Because you haven't read the manual, apparently.

>>

>

Wow, what a worthless comment.

I am really tired of comments that state that you should first memorize

the "manual" before asking questions. Sadly, not everyone has the time

to search for hours through the poorly organized Eagle documentation.

 

Please offer constructive answers or don't waste the poster's or the

rest of our valuable time.

 

Why don't you simply write  "Use the MIRROR command"?

--

Mit freundlichen Gruessen / Best regards

Richard Hammerl

  CadSoft Support -- hotline@cadsoft.de

  FAQ: http://www.cadsoft.de/training/faq/

Marvin Dawson wrote on Thu, 03 November 2011 01:12

Wow, what a worthless comment.

I am really tired of comments that state that you should first memorize

 

the "manual" before asking questions.

I am really tired of people that bash Eagle before bothering to learn it.

The OP didn't come here asking for help.  He came here to dump a diatribe

on us.

Either you don't know something and therefore ask a genuine question, or

you do know it and can pass judgement on it.  You can't have it both ways.

Did the OP really think Eagle wasn't capable of placing parts on the bottom

of the board?  Of course not (giving him credit for at least some brains).

The question should have been "How do I place components on the bottom of

the board?", but instead he had to get a dig in there without even knowing

what the software can really do: "why can't I place parts on the bottom

layer????".  Clearly that's not really a question, just a childish rant.

Also note that I answered the question as aksed.  He didn't ask how to do

it, but why he couldn't do it.  If that's not what he wanted answered, then

he shouldn't have asked it.

Quote:

Sadly, not everyone has the time to search for hours through the poorly

organized Eagle documentation.

But they seem to have the time to bump around in the dark and then ask here

waiting for answers.  People that think reading the manual wastes time are

thinking short term, and have no business pretending to be engineers.

Of course there are things that will be confusing even after having done

your homework, but then you ask humbly assuming you're the one that doesn't

get it until proven othrewise, not "Why can't I do this with this crappy

software?".

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Am 03.11.2011 06:12, schrieb Marvin Dawson:

Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> Element 14 User whined on Wed, 02 November 2011 16:43

>>> 3. In the Latout Editor, why can't I place parts on the bottom

>>> layer????

>>

>> Because you haven't read the manual, apparently.

>>

>

Wow, what a worthless comment.

I am really tired of comments that state that you should first memorize

the "manual" before asking questions. Sadly, not everyone has the time

to search for hours through the poorly organized Eagle documentation.

 

Please offer constructive answers or don't waste the poster's or the

rest of our valuable time.

 

What a wonderful example of a constructive answer.

--

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag

Richard Hammerl Inscribed thus:

Am 03.11.2011 06:12, schrieb Marvin Dawson:

>> Olin Lathrop wrote:

>>> Element 14 User whined on Wed, 02 November 2011 16:43

>>>> 3. In the Latout Editor, why can't I place parts on the bottom

>>>> layer????

>>>

>>> Because you haven't read the manual, apparently.

>>>

>>

>> Wow, what a worthless comment.

>> I am really tired of comments that state that you should first

>> memorize the "manual" before asking questions. Sadly, not everyone

>> has the time to search for hours through the poorly organized Eagle

>> documentation.

>>

>> Please offer constructive answers or don't waste the poster's or the

>> rest of our valuable time.

>>

 

Why don't you simply write  "Use the MIRROR command"?

 

With all due respect, Olin, has a point !

--

Best Regards:

                     Baron.

Baron <baron.nospam@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:

Richard Hammerl Inscribed thus:

 

>> Am 03.11.2011 06:12, schrieb Marvin Dawson:

>>> Olin Lathrop wrote:

>>>> Element 14 User whined on Wed, 02 November 2011 16:43

>>>>> 3. In the Latout Editor, why can't I place parts on the bottom

>>>>> layer????

>>>>

>>>> Because you haven't read the manual, apparently.

>>>>

>>>

>>> Wow, what a worthless comment.

>>> I am really tired of comments that state that you should first

>>> memorize the "manual" before asking questions. Sadly, not everyone

>>> has the time to search for hours through the poorly organized Eagle

>>> documentation.

>>>

>>> Please offer constructive answers or don't waste the poster's or the

>>> rest of our valuable time.

>>>

>>

>>

>> Why don't you simply write  "Use the MIRROR command"?

>>

 

With all due respect, Olin, has a point !

Yes Olin has a point, but not a helpful one. He doesnt seem to have solved

the human equation. You may argue that electronic engineers doesnt do human

engineering, but in many cases knowing a bit of both is a big advantage. I

hope Olins company already has a bunch of satisfied customers, cause he

sure scared me off long time ago with his behaviour.

Hi there,

As being one of those Eagle newcomers I have to second the original poster of this thread. My first contact with Eagle was a disaster, I though wow, that's a good example of how not to do a user interface! This was a quite long time ago, when Eagle could be used on a Mac only via the X11 windowing system. (Disclaimer: yes, I am using Macs since 1995!). Obviously, I ran as far away as I could after only one day of trying to use Eagle.

Two weeks ago, after having a chat with a colleague (also a Mac user) he pointed me to the Eagle software again. I said I know about it, but it runs under X11. However, we thought, let's give it a new try. To my amazement, Eagle runs now (almost) natively on the Mac (well, 100% native would be under Cocoa, Eagle depends heavly on the Carbon subsystem).

So it was quite a suprise, as finally one can use the Mac as a CAD platform. I decided to give the software a much deeper consideration, therefore I spent a week or so reading the whole manual while playing with the examples. The conclusion is, the software is really powerful, but... the GUI is a disaster. Obviously, this program must have started its life (Eagle 1.0?) as comand line software! The concept of clicking first a button signifying a command and then selecting the object upon which the command will be executed led me to this conclusion (it follows the comand line flow).

For all those comenters who claim that it's only a matter of learning something new: you don't get the point. All operating systems have GUI rules (with the exception probably of various Linux distros who apparently have no rules), in particular Apple is extremely picky at setting and following those rules. The vast majority of the Mac developper community is following these rules, and so most of the Mac software is particularly pleasant, efficient and easy to use. Well, it's a Mac, that makes the Mac so much different.

Looking from the perspective above, Eagle seldom respects the rules. It simply goes like a bulldozer over everything, re-inventing all anew. A long time Mac user must re-learn a lot on how to do things (and I am sure it does apply to the Windows users too!). It is a huge difference between re-learing basic things (how to select an object, move it, delete it, how to scroll left/right and up/down, etc.) which must remain system-wide the same, and learning specific things related to what a certain software should do (placing parts, rotating them, editing library parts, etc.).

So I find the comment above "For many this means ' the way I have been conditioned by Microsoft's methods for doing things.'" relevant for the way of thinking of the people here. Apparently they have come to terms on how CadSoft conditioned them to do things. What is now if each and every software house would introduce their own rules of doing things for their products? That would lead to an unbearable cacophony that would render computers almost useles! In my view, this is a dangerous way of thinking. Yes, if Microsoft (or Apple) "conditioned" developers to implent things in a certain way, they should stick with it! Re-inventing the wheel is not a good idea.

So the bottom line is, it's a pitty that the Eagle product manager(s) do not try to look beyond the technicals. The User Interface is a very important part of a software. After two weeks of working with Eagle, I can feel its power behind the surface; however, the "surface" is horrible! Both its look and feel and the way of telling it to do something. At least on a Mac, it simply doesn't belong here! with all those primitive and badly designe icons, with the placement of controls, with drop-down menues including icons, with the scroll that sometimes goes erratically while on the left/right directions doesn't go at all!, etc. etc. Even the fact that there still is a command line inside the GUI speaks miles! If I would be the Project manager, it would be the first thing I would do: remove the CLI and move it outside the program; then I would hire some good GUI designers, one for Windows, the other for the Mac; Linux apparently doesn't need one.

So please take my post as a constructive critique. I repeat, the software is very capable (I am an old hat in the Electronics/Software industry -- 35+ years!, having used professionally many CAD programs on Unix and Windows workstations). The CAD world was never particularly sensitive to the User Interface issues, most of this kind of software being written with the GUI as an afterthought. However, what CadSoft has done here is probably the worst I have ever seen in my entire professional life.

The diatribe above doesn't make me give up on Eagle. And the main reason is that this is the single serious CAD suite that runs on a Mac. I can meanwhile master the software quite well (for the time being for a small, private project), but it would have been much easier if the general GUI rules would have been respected. If I will recommend it to professional use to an enterprise, this is however a different matter.

Lix