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EAGLE User Support (English) Negative printing support
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Negative printing support

Former Member
Former Member over 14 years ago

Hi, guys!

I've been using EAGLE since 4.16 version as a hobbyist and bought

non-profit license some time ago. Making PCBs with EAGLE and "laser printer

and iron" is just perfect and there are very few things that can be added

in there. But when I decided to "upgrade" to photoresist method I faced a

strong problem. Here (in Russia) it's much easy to get negative photoresist

since it's more popular among PCB manufactures. And getting a negative

template from EAGLE became an endless disaster for me (and, as I figured

out after some googling - not only for me).

I found some workarounds like:

1. use CAM job to output to "PS_INVERTED" device and get a PostScript

inverted image file - fail. It ignores everything placed on pads and output

pads as they are in libraries. That will not suites hobbyists since it's

very difficult to drill "regular" pads and they have to be enlarged (I

place vias with a big outer diameter and small inner for center drill

manually drilling the PCB). Even drill-aid script isn't working.

2. print to a PostScipt file with a regular Print dialog. Than, you have to

invert a needed part of sheet manually or use some other tools (I've tried

Imagemagick set). By manually inverting you loose time, lots of time. If

using scripts, you face some problems, that are very difficult to solve:

very hard to figure out what area to invert (for the script), and very hard

to make a new blank file with inverted image with a correct size/resolution

and hard to place PCB dawning on it. And all methods are anyway leads to

quality loss and some toolchain/third-party software on you hard drive -

fail.

3. use the exp2image script to get a png image. Easy to use, but very hard

to print because of placement troubles and resolution/scale/size

discrepancy. And external mirroring needed anyway. A print, got by that

method anyway differs from a print, that can be made with a "regular" print

command or printing to PostScript. It's almost OK for small PCBs, but will

make garbage for PCBs at least 10 cm by any dimension - fail.

 

If you search through the forum, you can find many questions about how to

print in negative. I think, it's a good time for fixing that issue.

 

And sure, there is a nice and clear solution: add "Negative" checkbox to

the printing dialog of the program. It will illuminate all the pains of

hobbyists, trying to make a negative template. So, all the options, that

are so helpful like image position predefinition (Alignment), Mirror,

Rotating and Black with "Invert" will make a perfect and comprehensive

software for those part of EAGLE users, that using it at home and don't

order PCBs in pcbhouses, but make them thyself. And even to improve it, a

border width edit should be added under "Negative" checkbox, so users can

set black border around Dimension line, that will became "white" after

inverting - for the sake of comfort.

-

 

P.S. I'm a week of searching an easy and suitable way of getting negatives

from EAGLE and steal in progress.

P.P.S. As I work for well known here software company, I know that you may

think it's a minor request and there are lots of urgent stuff to do, but

usability is that thing that should be thought about. By fixing that

request you will make life of hobbyists much and much easy and more

pleasant, especially if you are offering a special license for nonprofits.

Thank you.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

 

  • Cancel

Top Replies

  • Jan Cumps
    Jan Cumps over 2 years ago in reply to billpenner +1
    Bill, this happened more than 10 years ago. Forgive and forget ;)
Parents
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 14 years ago

    Well.. exporting to gerber is almost useless for hobbyist because gerber

    seems to store pads and drills "centers" separately: it's OK if you are

    using CNC to drill PCB, but makes it very difficult to drill manually

    because you don't have a centering point in the middle of pad. You never

    know until you try and feel it. So, is you don't have a small hole in

    center of pad (etched in copper layer) drill will get out of pad or even

    break. That's why using PS_NEGATIVE will not do: it ignores the pad size

    and ignores stuff like drill-aid.

    And exporting to image (including printing to .ps) anyway leads to quality

    loss and scale problems. And some extra software needed to invert/print the

    board. If anything changes in that external toolchain you can fail to

    print. And some extra operations needed to process image/.ps - that leads

    to time loss.

     

    Is it really difficult to implement negative printing? You will help those

    people, who make PCBs themselves with use of negative photoresist

    technology.

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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Reply
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 14 years ago

    Well.. exporting to gerber is almost useless for hobbyist because gerber

    seems to store pads and drills "centers" separately: it's OK if you are

    using CNC to drill PCB, but makes it very difficult to drill manually

    because you don't have a centering point in the middle of pad. You never

    know until you try and feel it. So, is you don't have a small hole in

    center of pad (etched in copper layer) drill will get out of pad or even

    break. That's why using PS_NEGATIVE will not do: it ignores the pad size

    and ignores stuff like drill-aid.

    And exporting to image (including printing to .ps) anyway leads to quality

    loss and scale problems. And some extra software needed to invert/print the

    board. If anything changes in that external toolchain you can fail to

    print. And some extra operations needed to process image/.ps - that leads

    to time loss.

     

    Is it really difficult to implement negative printing? You will help those

    people, who make PCBs themselves with use of negative photoresist

    technology.

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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Children
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 14 years ago in reply to Former Member

    grubber wrote on Fri, 11 February 2011 13:01

    And exporting to image (including printing to .ps) anyway leads to

    quality loss and scale problems.

     

    No it doesn't, at least if done right.  Nowadays printers inherently draw

    pixel images.  Just export with exactly the same resolution as the printer

    (like 600 DPI, for example).  That way each image pixel corresponds to

    exactly one printer dot.  Sometimes you may have to select a special "1:1"

    printing mode, but that's what the selection is there for.

     

    Quote:

    And some extra software needed to invert/print the board.

     

    Which is freely and readily available in so many ways it's hard to count,

    so this is a really silly objection.

     

    Quote:

    If anything changes in that external toolchain you can fail to print.

    And some extra operations needed to process image/.ps - that leads to

    time loss.

     

    Yes, you do have to have working brain, but not much of one.  If you can't

    even figure out how to invert a image black to white, then you probably

    shouldn't be messing with electronics.  You might stick yourself with the

    little pointy things coming out of the black plastic thingies, or pick up a

    soldering iron by the wrong end or something.

     

    Quote:

    Is it really difficult to implement negative printing? You will help

    those people, who make PCBs themselves with use of negative photoresist

    technology.

     

    The point is IT'S ALREADY POSSIBLE.  Let's leave Cadsoft to take care of

    the important things, not add every silly little feature whenever some

    whining hobbyist can't spell "pixel".

     

    To prove the point, I went to Eagle, opened a recent board, displayed only

    the top, pads, and vias layers, then did a FILE > EXPORT > IMAGE to a TIF

    file at 600 DPI in monochrome.  To keep the file size down I made a cropped

    version from near the middle of the board.  Then I made a inverted version

    from that.  The original cropped version is attached as b.gif and the

    inverted is c.gif.  This couldn't have taken me more than a minute or two.

     

    Now, why can't you do this?

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 14 years ago in reply to Former Member

    "Olin Lathrop" <eagle@embedinc.com> wrote in message

    news:ij6hcc$sk8$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

     

    grubber wrote on Fri, 11 February 2011 13:01

    >> And exporting to image (including printing to .ps) anyway leads to

    >> quality loss and scale problems.

     

    No it doesn't, at least if done right.  Nowadays printers inherently draw

    pixel images.  Just export with exactly the same resolution as the printer

    (like 600 DPI, for example).  That way each image pixel corresponds to

    exactly one printer dot.  Sometimes you may have to select a special "1:1"

    printing mode, but that's what the selection is there for.

     

    Quote:

    >> And some extra software needed to invert/print the board.

     

    Which is freely and readily available in so many ways it's hard to count,

    so this is a really silly objection.

     

    Quote:

    >> If anything changes in that external toolchain you can fail to print.

    >> And some extra operations needed to process image/.ps - that leads to

    >> time loss.

     

    Yes, you do have to have working brain, but not much of one.  If you can't

    even figure out how to invert a image black to white, then you probably

    shouldn't be messing with electronics.  You might stick yourself with the

    little pointy things coming out of the black plastic thingies, or pick up

    a

    soldering iron by the wrong end or something.

     

    Quote:

    >> Is it really difficult to implement negative printing? You will help

    >> those people, who make PCBs themselves with use of negative photoresist

    >> technology.

     

    The point is IT'S ALREADY POSSIBLE.  Let's leave Cadsoft to take care of

    the important things, not add every silly little feature whenever some

    whining hobbyist can't spell "pixel".

     

    To prove the point, I went to Eagle, opened a recent board, displayed only

    the top, pads, and vias layers, then did a FILE > EXPORT > IMAGE to a TIF

    file at 600 DPI in monochrome.  To keep the file size down I made a

    cropped

    version from near the middle of the board.  Then I made a inverted version

    from that.  The original cropped version is attached as b.gif and the

    inverted is c.gif.  This couldn't have taken me more than a minute or two.

     

    Now, why can't you do this?

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the

    CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

     

    If Eagle is a commercial product it will try to satisfy as many users as

    possible.

     

    If putting one more checkbox named "invert" next to "black" on the "print"

    dialog and change 0 with 255 in the output string will give them more

    customers, they should do-it.

     

    It's not a "user friendly" attitude for them to say "do-it your self in

    Paint if you need-it".

     

     

    --

    Silviu Epure

    "Dunarea de Jos" University of Galati, Romania

    http://www.etc.ugal.ro/sepure

     

     

     

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