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Bitmap import into schematic

e14 Contributor

This is not at all urgent but maybe someone has an idea. Yesterday I had

a situation that happens a lot. I received a schematic that was in need

of some minor redesign. Only in PDF, like usual. So this time I wanted

to see if Eagle can do the redlines by importing a black&white bitmap

snapshot out of the PDF file. Then I wanted to draw the extra stuff in red.

 

Long story short in a graphics program the bitmap looked crisp and

clear. After importing it into an Eagle schematics window it was all

blurry like I had ten beers and with a bright yellow background. Useless

for any redline work, so I did it as usual with a red pen and my

scanner. Why is that rendering so badly in Eagle?

 

--

Regards, Joerg

 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

  • Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    >>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    >>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

    >>>> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

    >>>> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

    >>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can

    >>> have

    >>> a look at that?

    >>>

    >> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

    >> my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

    >> from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

    >> posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

    >>

    >> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    >> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

     

    First, this is not a bmp as I expected.

    Second, you never save a two color technical image as jpg. That screws it up

    totally.

     

     

    Hmm, MS-Paint stored this strictly as a black & white image, no colors,

    no grayscale.

     

     

    (You can check the quality of your two color image by trying to fill the

    background with a different color. If it leaves spots, its bad.)

    Third, it appears that the ulp does not handle details well. Write a new image

     

     

    That's my impression as well. Unfortunately I am not a programmer

    though, I'd have a hard time writing a ULP.

     

    As for the PNG you are right. It is also my preference. However, when

    you want to show results on the actual screen (IOW, a "print screen") it

    often results in file sizes much larger than JPEG in a comparable quality.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

    "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.

    Use another domain or send PM.

     

  • in reply to e14 Contributor

    Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    >>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    >>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

    >>>> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

    >>>> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

    >>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can

    >>> have

    >>> a look at that?

    >>>

    >> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

    >> my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

    >> from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

    >> posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

    >>

    >> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    >> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

     

    First, this is not a bmp as I expected.

    Second, you never save a two color technical image as jpg. That screws it up

    totally.

     

     

    Hmm, MS-Paint stored this strictly as a black & white image, no colors,

    no grayscale.

     

     

    (You can check the quality of your two color image by trying to fill the

    background with a different color. If it leaves spots, its bad.)

    Third, it appears that the ulp does not handle details well. Write a new image

     

     

    That's my impression as well. Unfortunately I am not a programmer

    though, I'd have a hard time writing a ULP.

     

    As for the PNG you are right. It is also my preference. However, when

    you want to show results on the actual screen (IOW, a "print screen") it

    often results in file sizes much larger than JPEG in a comparable quality.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

    "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.

    Use another domain or send PM.

     

  • "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

    my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

    from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

    posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

     

    I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

     

     

    Oh and I forgot.. Use PNG format for posting lossless compression of

    techical images. It compresses very well.

     

     

     

  • in reply to e14 Contributor

    "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

    my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

    from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

    posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

     

    I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

     

     

    Oh and I forgot.. Use PNG format for posting lossless compression of

    techical images. It compresses very well.

     

     

     

  • "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    news:iqh0gu$m1e$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    >> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    >> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

    >>> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

    >>> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

    >>

    >> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can

    >> have

    >> a look at that?

    >>

    >

    Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

    my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

    from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

    posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

     

    I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

     

    First, this is not a bmp as I expected.

    Second, you never save a two color technical image as jpg. That screws it up

    totally.

    (You can check the quality of your two color image by trying to fill the

    background with a different color. If it leaves spots, its bad.)

    Third, it appears that the ulp does not handle details well. Write a new image

     

     

     

     

  • Warren Brayshaw wrote:

    Joerg wrote:

    >> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    >>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    >>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to

    >>>> 16. There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in

    >>>> there would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not

    >>>> good.

    >>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we

    >>> can have a look at that?

    >>>

    >> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality

    >> with my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random

    >> graph from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to

    >> 50k so I posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have

    >> attached it again.

    >>

    >> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    >> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

    >>

    >> --

    >> Regards, Joerg

    >>

    >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

    Hi Joerg

     

    The import.bmp ULP was built as a middle solution. It is a tool to get a

    representaion of your bitmap into a layer which you then trace over using

    polygons etc. as descibed in the opening dialog of the ULP  . Some people do

    use it as a final solution and  create logos for their board designs using

    the thousands of rectangles that now make up the image. By tracing over

    polygons etc. the number of objects is significantly reduced and thus the

    molasses effect disappears. In cases like yours it is impractical to craft

    so many polygons so this confirms this is not the tool for the job. I

    believe it is possible that a second ULP could  convert these rectangle

    areas into a smaller number of polygons. Maybe this has been already done by

    someone and they would care to offer it up.

     

     

    I think in general this would be practical. Not so much for my case but

    if people want to include analyzer or scope plots in a schematic for

    illustration. For example, for educational purposes.

     

     

    You have not said explicitly whether you have the original schematic as an

    eagle schematic, anyway I feel I would not try your approach with a

    schematic.  I would for a board layout to replicate track and positioning

    when cloning a design.

     

     

    In this case it was the usual: A bitmap lifted off of a PDF. I could

    have gotten it in Altium as well but that wouldn't have helped because I

    only have a viewer for that.

     

    Anyhow, I just wanted to see whether Eagle could do this stuff. Seems

    like it can't (yet). So I'll keep doing it in MS-Paint. Works but sure

    doesn't feel high-tech image

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

  • in reply to e14 Contributor

    Warren Brayshaw wrote:

    Joerg wrote:

    >> Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    >>> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    >>> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >>>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to

    >>>> 16. There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in

    >>>> there would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not

    >>>> good.

    >>> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we

    >>> can have a look at that?

    >>>

    >> Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality

    >> with my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random

    >> graph from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to

    >> 50k so I posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have

    >> attached it again.

    >>

    >> I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    >> look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

    >>

    >> --

    >> Regards, Joerg

    >>

    >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

    Hi Joerg

     

    The import.bmp ULP was built as a middle solution. It is a tool to get a

    representaion of your bitmap into a layer which you then trace over using

    polygons etc. as descibed in the opening dialog of the ULP  . Some people do

    use it as a final solution and  create logos for their board designs using

    the thousands of rectangles that now make up the image. By tracing over

    polygons etc. the number of objects is significantly reduced and thus the

    molasses effect disappears. In cases like yours it is impractical to craft

    so many polygons so this confirms this is not the tool for the job. I

    believe it is possible that a second ULP could  convert these rectangle

    areas into a smaller number of polygons. Maybe this has been already done by

    someone and they would care to offer it up.

     

     

    I think in general this would be practical. Not so much for my case but

    if people want to include analyzer or scope plots in a schematic for

    illustration. For example, for educational purposes.

     

     

    You have not said explicitly whether you have the original schematic as an

    eagle schematic, anyway I feel I would not try your approach with a

    schematic.  I would for a board layout to replicate track and positioning

    when cloning a design.

     

     

    In this case it was the usual: A bitmap lifted off of a PDF. I could

    have gotten it in Altium as well but that wouldn't have helped because I

    only have a viewer for that.

     

    Anyhow, I just wanted to see whether Eagle could do this stuff. Seems

    like it can't (yet). So I'll keep doing it in MS-Paint. Works but sure

    doesn't feel high-tech image

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

  • Joerg wrote:

    Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    >> "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    >> news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >>> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to

    >>> 16. There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in

    >>> there would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not

    >>> good.

    >>

    >> Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we

    >> can have a look at that?

    >>

    >

    Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality

    with my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random

    graph from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to

    50k so I posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have

    attached it again.

     

    I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

    Hi Joerg

     

    The import.bmp ULP was built as a middle solution. It is a tool to get a

    representaion of your bitmap into a layer which you then trace over using

    polygons etc. as descibed in the opening dialog of the ULP  . Some people do

    use it as a final solution and  create logos for their board designs using

    the thousands of rectangles that now make up the image. By tracing over

    polygons etc. the number of objects is significantly reduced and thus the

    molasses effect disappears. In cases like yours it is impractical to craft

    so many polygons so this confirms this is not the tool for the job. I

    believe it is possible that a second ULP could  convert these rectangle

    areas into a smaller number of polygons. Maybe this has been already done by

    someone and they would care to offer it up.

     

    You have not said explicitly whether you have the original schematic as an

    eagle schematic, anyway I feel I would not try your approach with a

    schematic.  I would for a board layout to replicate track and positioning

    when cloning a design.

     

    Warren

     

     

     

  • in reply to e14 Contributor

    On 5/11/2011 9:17 AM, James Morrison wrote:

    Joerg wrote on Wed, 11 May 2011 10:24

    >>> I hope in EAGLE 6 they allow for pasting in real images like a

    >>> word

    >>> document.  In the schematic it should be easy enough I would think.

    >>>   It's a

    >>> great way to document things like boot mode resistor settings and

    >>> other

    >>> configurations.  In other tools I'll copy a section right out of

    >>> the

    >>> datasheet and paste it right into the schematic--nice and quick and

    >>> no

    >>> typos.  You can also paste in any other information to help

    >>> document the

    >>> design.

    >>

    >>

    >> Absolutely. Maybe you remember TV set schematics from the good old

    >> days?

    >> They had dozens of oscilloscope plots in there, often in the form of

    >> photos because back then no (affordable) computers existed. These

    >> "mini

    >> plots" told the reader of the schematic what to look for, how the

    >> signals had to be. Very effective for the diagnosis of a faulty set.

    >

    There are lots of ways you could paste in diagrams, charts, datasheet

    snippets, block diagrams, ... that would all help document the design.

     

    Quote:

    >>> In the board editor, I can see it being a bit more complicated.

    >>> But I'm

    >>> sure they could make a special layer for this that doesn't have any

    >>> real

    >>> electrical use.  Maybe the CAM processor just ignores these

    >>> objects.  It

    >>> would be useful for the same reasons and more.

    >>>

    >>

    >> In a layout I wouldn't really know what it'd be good for. I do the

    >> same

    >> kind of reviewing with layouts. But there I just import a chunk of the

    >> Gerbers into, ahem, MS-Paint. Then lots of delete, copy, paste and now

    >> the client or layouter has instructions how to re-route stuff so they

    >> pass EMC this time.

    >

    Images I would paste into a PCB:

    1)  datasheet snippets (text and images) that discuss layout issues and

    recommendations

    2)  mechanical drawings

    3)  stackup diagrams, e.g. screen shot from HyperLynx

    4)  connector pinout diagrams from design specs

     

    That is just off the top of my head.

     

    I think one of the most frustrating things to me is CadSoft seems to

    consider documentation to not be part of the design.  To me, this sort of

    documentation is as much a part of a successful design as the actual traces

    and vias.  This is especially true when more than one person works on the

    design.

     

    With Altium changing their strategy and seemingly trying to become a higher

    and higher level design tool, it seems to be that the value CAD market is

    ripe for domination by EAGLE.

     

    And the sad part is, most of these features that everyone uses and EAGLE

    can do, it just doesn't do very well or doesn't do it out of the box,

    wouldn't take very long to integrate in properly and improve the newbie

    experience by a big percentage.

     

    Then there are the more advanced features like heirarchy and differential

    routing which pushes CadSoft into the more professional tool arena.

     

    By doing these things, I would think that EAGLE would start taking a big

    amount of market share from others.  When a lifetime license is less than a

    one year service contract, who can argue.  Very few companies need the big,

    vertical toolsets.  Some do, most don't.

     

    Cheers,

     

    James.

    Some very good points here James, IMHO...

     

  • Morten Leikvoll wrote:

    "Joerg" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

    news:iqegru$583$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

    >> That's actually what I had done initially to reduce the colors to 16.

    >> There were other reviewers before me so a little color left in there

    >> would have been nice. Eagle ate it but the results were not good.

     

    Maybe you could post the final bitmap (raw) before importing, so we can have

    a look at that?

     

     

    Can't post the schematic because that would violate confidentiality with

    my client. But the same happened when I tried to import a random graph

    from an NXP datasheet. The Cadsoft server limits attachments to 50k so I

    posted a snippet of that in my response to Tilman. Have attached it again.

     

    I can import that when selecting only one color (black) but it doesn't

    look very good and makes Eagle behave like molasses.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/