CLI is faster than GUI myths

Morten Leikvoll wrote on Fri, 11 November 2011 04:59

Id like to start this thread to address the "CLI is faster than GUI"

myths.

I challenge diehard CLI users to add their favorite command that they

think

cant be done as efficient in a GUI, and I'll try to find a equally

efficient

way to do it the GUI way.

Good idea I think.  This could actually be educational to people on both

sides.

Scenario 1:  Move PCB elements (components, traces, vias, ...) by some

exact, very small amount, say 0.001mm.  I don't think that is even

possible with GUI since the grid won't display.  You could argue then, why

does it matter to move such a small amount, but I like to be accurate

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

Specializing in CadSoft EAGLE

• Online Sales to North America

• Electronic Design Services

• EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

>Scenario 1: Move PCB elements (components, traces, vias, ...) by some

exact, very small amount, say 0.001mm. I don't think that is even

possible with GUI since the grid won't display. You could argue then, why

does it matter to move such a small amount, but I like to be accurate

That one is easy. Two alternatives would work in a common gui environment.

1.Right click the element and select properties. At properties win you will

find coords and you can change them (much like today, and I use i a lot). A

relative checkbox could switch to relative coor mode, and would work on

many elements.

2. A relative move action in a menu entry that does it directly on the

selected components. For most gui toolsl all the actions available in

context menus are also found in the main menu.

>Scenario 1: Move PCB elements (components, traces, vias, ...) by some

exact, very small amount, say 0.001mm. I don't think that is even

possible with GUI since the grid won't display. You could argue then, why

does it matter to move such a small amount, but I like to be accurate

That one is easy. Two alternatives would work in a common gui environment.

1.Right click the element and select properties. At properties win you will

find coords and you can change them (much like today, and I use i a lot). A

relative checkbox could switch to relative coor mode, and would work on

many elements.

2. A relative move action in a menu entry that does it directly on the

selected components. For most gui toolsl all the actions available in

context menus are also found in the main menu.

Am 12.11.2011 00:56, schrieb Daniel Hiepler:

I think this is exactly the wrong way, since good software shines most,

when it can solve your very specific and uncommon problem in an

efficient and painless way, better than competing software products.

(It's useless if the software can do a thousand things but can't do

what you want right now. Or need very much effort to do it)

Usually, when I write software or our department has to solve problems,

we take the pareto approach: what are the most common problems?

Once these are addressed, we can move forward to the specific problems.

Of course, it should do that for a maximum amount of different users.

(It's useless if it can solve very specific problems for only 1% of the

userbase)

That's more in the spirit of the pareto approach.

I made good experience with

  - providing standard GUI solutions for the common problems

  - provide examples / a cookbook how to solve the specific problems

    with CLI; even non-programmers manage to adapt these to their tasks

But, over time, more and more tasks are moved from the CLI to the GUI.

I admit that for many of my tasks a good GUI is much more work than

the logic behind.

Also, it's not possible to define a good GUI on paper and then just

implement it. It always requires some iterations. Sometimes it takes

me years to have a good idea for a certain task.

Regards,

Dietmar

>Are you answering with how to do a task with an ideal GUI or with EAGLE 5

as it stands today? If it's the first one (ideal GUI) then it's a useless

exercise as that GUI doesn't exist. Of course the perfect GUI would work

perfectly. But that's not very useful.

This addresses how a GUI should be in a near ideal case, and how non-Eagle

GUI standardards would handle it.

Vom: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:11:27 GMT

I think only realistic, practical cases should be taken seriously.

Commands/procedures that either are useless or very seldom performed

should not be submitted.

 

I think this is exactly the wrong way, since good software shines most,

when it can solve your very specific and uncommon problem in an

efficient and painless way, better than competing software products.

(It's useless if the software can do a thousand things but can't do

what you want right now. Or need very much effort to do it)

Of course, it should do that for a maximum amount of different users.

(It's useless if it can solve very specific problems for only 1% of the

userbase)

best regards

Morten Leikvoll wrote on Fri, 11 November 2011 11:42

>Scenario 1: Move PCB elements (components, traces, vias, ...) by some

exact, very small amount, say 0.001mm. I don't think that is

even

possible with GUI since the grid won't display. You could argue

then, why

does it matter to move such a small amount, but I like to be

accurate

 

That one is easy. Two alternatives would work in a common gui

environment.

 

1.Right click the element and select properties. At properties win you

will

find coords and you can change them (much like today, and I use i a

lot). A

relative checkbox could switch to relative coor mode, and would work

on

many elements.

 

2. A relative move action in a menu entry that does it directly on the

selected components. For most gui toolsl all the actions available in

context menus are also found in the main menu.

Are you answering with how to do a task with an ideal GUI or with EAGLE 5

as it stands today?  If it's the first one (ideal GUI) then it's a useless

exercise as that GUI doesn't exist.  Of course the perfect GUI would work

perfectly.  But that's not very useful.

I'm assuming you're trying to answer with how EAGLE 5 works today.

Your first alternative above only works on an individual component.  I need

to shove everything over.

Your second alternative doesn't exist in EAGLE so it's a moot point.

And while it's a small amount, it maybe be enough to just squeeze some

space to get a trace into a dense area and avoid DRC values.  So it's not

just theoretical.  Sometimes even 0.001mm make a differnce.  You could just

ignore the DRC error but I don't do that unless there is no other option.

It still remains that you can't do this with the current EAGLE GUI.  I'm

open to being shown differently.  And writing a ULP to do it and then

clicking a button to run the ULP doesn't count.

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

Specializing in CadSoft EAGLE

• Online Sales to North America

• Electronic Design Services

• EAGLE Enterprise Toolkit

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Am 11.11.2011 20:27, schrieb Dietmar Schwertberger:

Am 11.11.2011 17:42, schrieb Morten Leikvoll:

>>> Scenario 1: Move PCB elements (components, traces, vias, ...) by some

>>> exact, very small amount, say 0.001mm. I don't think that is even

>>> possible with GUI since the grid won't display. You could argue then,

>>> why

>>> does it matter to move such a small amount, but I like to be accurate

>>

>> That one is easy. Two alternatives would work in a common gui

>> environment.

>>

>> 1.Right click the element and select properties. At properties win you

>> will

>> find coords and you can change them (much like today, and I use i a

>> lot). A

>> relative checkbox could switch to relative coor mode, and would work on

>> many elements.

>>

>> 2. A relative move action in a menu entry that does it directly on the

>> selected components. For most gui toolsl all the actions available in

>> context menus are also found in the main menu.

A third alterntive may be to use the arrow keys.

Maybe there's even one more way:

There's enough space for a context sensitive toolbar.

When you move something, this toolbar could display four boxes

for absolute and relative coordinates and at the same time allow the

user to enter new values.

When you click to select the next component, the toolbar remains, such

that you can directly enter the position. At the same time, you can

press Ctrl+Y (re-do) to apply the same relative movement to this

component.

Regards,

Dietmar

Am 11.11.2011 17:42, schrieb Morten Leikvoll:

>> Scenario 1: Move PCB elements (components, traces, vias, ...) by some

>> exact, very small amount, say 0.001mm. I don't think that is even

>> possible with GUI since the grid won't display. You could argue then, why

>> does it matter to move such a small amount, but I like to be accurate

 

That one is easy. Two alternatives would work in a common gui environment.

 

1.Right click the element and select properties. At properties win you will

find coords and you can change them (much like today, and I use i a lot). A

relative checkbox could switch to relative coor mode, and would work on

many elements.

 

2. A relative move action in a menu entry that does it directly on the

selected components. For most gui toolsl all the actions available in

context menus are also found in the main menu.

A third alterntive may be to use the arrow keys.

I used to have a drawing program where you could move and place by pixel

using the arrows.

In Eagle, this could e.g. move by a grid size. Pressing Alt+Arrow would

move by the alternative grid size.

Pressing Shift-Arrow would move by a multiple of the grid.

Pressing Ctrl+Arrow would snap to grid (just as now with MOVE and Ctrl).

Pressing CtrlAltArrow would snap to the alternative grid.

To assist the user, the properties dialog box may display some info

about how to move using the arrow keys.

BTW. with the current MOVE command already the following improvements

could be made for more precise and comfortable placement and movement:

  - display not only the cursor position, but also the position in

    alternative grid (I often have one mil and one  mm grid)

  - display offset to starting position of component

In general, I would appreciate if most dialogs would be 'multilingual',

i.e. display mil, inch and mm at the same time (maybe as tooltip).

A first step is there already: you can always enter a value+unit in

dialog boxes and CLI.

Regards,

Dietmar

Lix Paulian <communitymanager@premierfarnell.com> wrote:

I think only realistic, practical cases should be taken seriously.

Commands/procedures that either are useless or very seldom performed

should not be submitted.

 

Lix

I'm happy to answer any strange challenge. Even suggest better ways to

accomplish the same result. But the most timesavers are most interesting.

I think only realistic, practical cases should be taken seriously. Commands/procedures that either are useless or very seldom performed should not be submitted.

Lix