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Autodesk EAGLE
EAGLE User Support (English) EAGLE GUI (1): Foreplay
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Related

EAGLE GUI (1): Foreplay

e14 Contributor
e14 Contributor over 14 years ago

Recent newsgroup posts have shown that some people strongly dislike

EAGLE's current user interface. Sometimes written in, erm, harsh words,

these complaints were often disqualified as mere whines of people not

caring about reading manuals.

 

With rather strong opinions on both sides, it is perhaps not so easy to

see that there is some truth in ALL posts:

  1. People complaining about the user interface are often quite new to

     EAGLE. They expect an Office-like interface and are faced with

     something completely different, which makes it rather hard for

     them. They CANNOT see from scratch that SOME functions are much

     more effective the way EAGLE presents them than with Office-like

     interfaces.

  2. Long-term users know lots of EAGLE's tricks and use command line,

     scripting and ULP programming with ease to achieve what they need.

     It is hard for them to see that other people don't know how to do

     certain things, as it 'should be obvious how to do that with the

     following syntax... - and it's all in the manual'.

 

I myself am CERTAINLY a long-term user and therefore see that some of

EAGLE's non-Office functionality is REALLY useful and makes life REALLY

easy. I LIKE EAGLE. Nevertheless, I would perhaps NOT want to buy it if

I were a new user and had downloaded it to make a decision which layout

program to use.

 

The reasons for this are clear: When testing a new program, I

  - expect an Office-like user interface (and if I don't get it, I want

    to see immediately WHY I don't get it, and why the ACTUAL interface

    is better suited for me),

  - just play around with it, look at the menus and click here and

    there (and know by heart that more or less ALL functionality will

    be accessible this way), and

  - do NOT read manuals (and only sometimes look into help files).

If I don't understand the user interface, or if the interface doesn't

present me with the functionality I need, I will throw the program away.

Yes, of course that's a pity, but I just DO NOT WANT to spend the time

to REALLY dig into a program BEFORE buying it. Reading manuals and help

pages is done AFTER delivery (some people NEVER do it).

 

Yes, the first look DOES count. Inner qualities come later. That's

surely the wrong approach for choosing your partner, but it's a VERY

common (and sometimes even time-saving) approach for things you can BUY.

 

Therefore, a program should do the following:

  3. Present the user with an interface that is AS EASY TO UNDERSTAND

     AS POSSIBLE without ruining the expert's workflow.

  4. Show as many of its functions as possible in menus, buttons,

     on-screen texts etc. without cluttering up the screen too much.

  5. Make often-used functions VERY easy to find and use (more

     complex functions may be a little bit more hidden).

  6. In case of doubt, make the CORRECT help pages appear in an

     instant, showing clear and concise information with proper

     linking.

People who ARE already experts don't need that. But NEW users do, and

especially NON-users who just take a look around (the potential new

customers).

 

Unfortunately, EAGLE is NOT so very good in the above points. It quite

definitely WAS once, nearly twenty years ago, when all other programs

were even MORE cryptic and strange. Considering their graphical user

interfaces (GUI), nearly all other programs have evolved CONSIDERABLY in

the meantime. EAGLE also DID evolve, but, unfortunately, VERY slowly

and, at least in my opinion, NOT ENOUGH!

 

Having a completely different user interface with every new version is

absolutely terrible, of course (some software companies seem to like

that approach, though), but having NO user interface for some functions

(and a rather, erm, BAROQUE interface for others) doesn't seem to be

sensible to me, either.

 

In the next time, I will try to show several points that might very well

frustrate new users (our institute is FULL of new users, and I DO hear

some complaints), and which can be corrected either VERY EASILY, or at

least without restructuring the whole program and giving everybody

headaches.

 

Andreas Weidner

 

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  • e14 Contributor
    e14 Contributor over 14 years ago

    Andreas Weidner wrote on Sat, 19 November 2011 07:47

    Reading manuals and help pages is done AFTER delivery (some people

    NEVER do it).

     

    Yes, there are people out there that have no discipline and require instant

    gratification.  Real engineers, however, understand that evaluating

    something complex like a EE CAD tool requires some work and researching of

    its capabilities, and know that what you can learn to do in 10 minutes has

    little correlation with how good the tool will be long term.

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • lix
    lix over 14 years ago in reply to e14 Contributor

    I read the manuals but this does not change the fact that EAGLE's UI is clumsy and non-standard (yes Olin, there is a minimum standard for all modern UIs). And to all of you that have grown up with EAGLE since it was perhaps at version 1.0 or so, I say this: the RTFM answer is not an excuse for a poorly designed UI. What I think is the most urgent thing needed to be done in EAGLE is to modernise its UI and bring it to the 21-st century. What is wrong with this? Ah, I see, the old EAGLE guys will have to re-learn things... to them, I can only say RTFM (the new one, of course)!

     

    Anyway, kudos for Andreas, at least he is one of thoes experienced EAGLE users willing to adapt to a new UI. However, I doubt CadSoft will do too much about this.

     

    Lix

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  • e14 Contributor
    e14 Contributor over 14 years ago in reply to lix

    Am 20.11.2011 17:24, schrieb Lix Paulian:

    to modernise its UI and bring it to the 21-st century. What is wrong with this?

    > Ah, I see, the old EAGLE guys will have to re-learn things...

     

    I don't think that's any problem: The expert's (or, since you seem to

    love that expression, 'old guys') would not NEED to learn anything new

    (or at least not very much). Provided you leave the command line intact!

     

    Therefore:

      1. Leave the command line like it is.

      2. Make all HUNDREDS of changes needed to achieve a better and

         more usable user interface (which does NOT include making it

         Office-compatible, because that would slow down the design process

         considerably). Since there is SO much to do about it, that'll take

         QUITE some time.

      3. AFTER the interface allows the user to do about 80% of the

         command line (at the moment, it's MUCH less), the CLI should NOT

         vanish, of course, but MIGHT be hidden by default. I still don't

         recommend to do that, but it COULD be done.

     

    However, I doubt CadSoft will do too much about this.

     

    That might be. But it also might well be NOT. Anyway, some complaints

    were of one of the following sorts:

      - EAGLE's GUI is bullshit, make it better

        (without any decent proposal HOW to do that)

      - EAGLE's GUI is non-standard, make it standard

        (without realising that Office-like GUIs are very good for

        LEARNING a software, but NOT good for real-world CAD workflow)

    It is rather easy for CadSoft to ignore such posts, because the former

    often feels like raving without providing any SOLUTION, and the latter

    would be very convenient for NEW users, but disrupt serious workflow

    with too much clicking (and additionally make all EAGLE source code

    written over twenty years nearly obsolete, which of course they do NOT

    really love).

     

    I hope I will be able to persuade the CadSoft guys that some changes in

    the user interface ARE necessary to avoid would-be users to buy or

    switch to other software, and even provide some SOLUTIONS for real-world

    problems WITHOUT the necessity to reprogram EAGLE from scratch. I might

    fail in that. But at least I want to do my best before admitting defeat.

    And in contrast to other companies, CadSoft has the wonderful habit of

    LISTENING to users and even IMPLEMENT some of their suggestions (thank

    you!)...

     

    Andreas Weidner

     

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  • e14 Contributor
    e14 Contributor over 14 years ago in reply to lix

    Am 20.11.2011 17:24, schrieb Lix Paulian:

    to modernise its UI and bring it to the 21-st century. What is wrong with this?

    > Ah, I see, the old EAGLE guys will have to re-learn things...

     

    I don't think that's any problem: The expert's (or, since you seem to

    love that expression, 'old guys') would not NEED to learn anything new

    (or at least not very much). Provided you leave the command line intact!

     

    Therefore:

      1. Leave the command line like it is.

      2. Make all HUNDREDS of changes needed to achieve a better and

         more usable user interface (which does NOT include making it

         Office-compatible, because that would slow down the design process

         considerably). Since there is SO much to do about it, that'll take

         QUITE some time.

      3. AFTER the interface allows the user to do about 80% of the

         command line (at the moment, it's MUCH less), the CLI should NOT

         vanish, of course, but MIGHT be hidden by default. I still don't

         recommend to do that, but it COULD be done.

     

    However, I doubt CadSoft will do too much about this.

     

    That might be. But it also might well be NOT. Anyway, some complaints

    were of one of the following sorts:

      - EAGLE's GUI is bullshit, make it better

        (without any decent proposal HOW to do that)

      - EAGLE's GUI is non-standard, make it standard

        (without realising that Office-like GUIs are very good for

        LEARNING a software, but NOT good for real-world CAD workflow)

    It is rather easy for CadSoft to ignore such posts, because the former

    often feels like raving without providing any SOLUTION, and the latter

    would be very convenient for NEW users, but disrupt serious workflow

    with too much clicking (and additionally make all EAGLE source code

    written over twenty years nearly obsolete, which of course they do NOT

    really love).

     

    I hope I will be able to persuade the CadSoft guys that some changes in

    the user interface ARE necessary to avoid would-be users to buy or

    switch to other software, and even provide some SOLUTIONS for real-world

    problems WITHOUT the necessity to reprogram EAGLE from scratch. I might

    fail in that. But at least I want to do my best before admitting defeat.

    And in contrast to other companies, CadSoft has the wonderful habit of

    LISTENING to users and even IMPLEMENT some of their suggestions (thank

    you!)...

     

    Andreas Weidner

     

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  • e14 Contributor
    e14 Contributor over 14 years ago in reply to e14 Contributor

    Andreas Weidner wrote on Mon, 21 November 2011 03:41

    EAGLE's GUI is non-standard,

     

    Which in itself is no issue.  You have to learn much more about any

    complicated program like Eagle than how exactly the user interface works.

    It doesn't matter what exactly it is, only that it allow for fast and

    effecient workflow once you have learned the program.

     

    Quote:

    Office-like GUIs are very good for LEARNING a software, but NOT good

    for real-world CAD workflow

     

    Or much else either.  It seems that office has gone backwards in its ease

    of use in the last decade.  With Word from Office 2000, I eventually got to

    know the shortcut keystrokes for things I used most of the time.  It could

    have been a lot better, but I got used to it enough to be able to get

    things done without having to use the mouse too much, and the associated

    decrease in efficiency associated with unnecessary mouse handling.  Then

    the Office version that came out shortly after XP (2005 or somewhere around

    there) changed lots of stuff in Word.  Lots of things were no longer

    possible without using the mouse.  Way too many things were only available

    in right-click context menus.  It became very aggrevating to use Word, and

    now I avoid it as much as possible.

     

    I hope Cadsoft can continue to demonstrate some maturity and not cater to

    the instant gratification clickety-click crowd at the expense of good

    workflow once you get to know the program.  All too many software develpers

    seem to forget that using the mouse slows down workflow for non-graphical

    interactions.

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

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