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Autodesk EAGLE
EAGLE User Support (English) EAGLE GUI (1): Foreplay
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EAGLE GUI (1): Foreplay

e14 Contributor
e14 Contributor over 14 years ago

Recent newsgroup posts have shown that some people strongly dislike

EAGLE's current user interface. Sometimes written in, erm, harsh words,

these complaints were often disqualified as mere whines of people not

caring about reading manuals.

 

With rather strong opinions on both sides, it is perhaps not so easy to

see that there is some truth in ALL posts:

  1. People complaining about the user interface are often quite new to

     EAGLE. They expect an Office-like interface and are faced with

     something completely different, which makes it rather hard for

     them. They CANNOT see from scratch that SOME functions are much

     more effective the way EAGLE presents them than with Office-like

     interfaces.

  2. Long-term users know lots of EAGLE's tricks and use command line,

     scripting and ULP programming with ease to achieve what they need.

     It is hard for them to see that other people don't know how to do

     certain things, as it 'should be obvious how to do that with the

     following syntax... - and it's all in the manual'.

 

I myself am CERTAINLY a long-term user and therefore see that some of

EAGLE's non-Office functionality is REALLY useful and makes life REALLY

easy. I LIKE EAGLE. Nevertheless, I would perhaps NOT want to buy it if

I were a new user and had downloaded it to make a decision which layout

program to use.

 

The reasons for this are clear: When testing a new program, I

  - expect an Office-like user interface (and if I don't get it, I want

    to see immediately WHY I don't get it, and why the ACTUAL interface

    is better suited for me),

  - just play around with it, look at the menus and click here and

    there (and know by heart that more or less ALL functionality will

    be accessible this way), and

  - do NOT read manuals (and only sometimes look into help files).

If I don't understand the user interface, or if the interface doesn't

present me with the functionality I need, I will throw the program away.

Yes, of course that's a pity, but I just DO NOT WANT to spend the time

to REALLY dig into a program BEFORE buying it. Reading manuals and help

pages is done AFTER delivery (some people NEVER do it).

 

Yes, the first look DOES count. Inner qualities come later. That's

surely the wrong approach for choosing your partner, but it's a VERY

common (and sometimes even time-saving) approach for things you can BUY.

 

Therefore, a program should do the following:

  3. Present the user with an interface that is AS EASY TO UNDERSTAND

     AS POSSIBLE without ruining the expert's workflow.

  4. Show as many of its functions as possible in menus, buttons,

     on-screen texts etc. without cluttering up the screen too much.

  5. Make often-used functions VERY easy to find and use (more

     complex functions may be a little bit more hidden).

  6. In case of doubt, make the CORRECT help pages appear in an

     instant, showing clear and concise information with proper

     linking.

People who ARE already experts don't need that. But NEW users do, and

especially NON-users who just take a look around (the potential new

customers).

 

Unfortunately, EAGLE is NOT so very good in the above points. It quite

definitely WAS once, nearly twenty years ago, when all other programs

were even MORE cryptic and strange. Considering their graphical user

interfaces (GUI), nearly all other programs have evolved CONSIDERABLY in

the meantime. EAGLE also DID evolve, but, unfortunately, VERY slowly

and, at least in my opinion, NOT ENOUGH!

 

Having a completely different user interface with every new version is

absolutely terrible, of course (some software companies seem to like

that approach, though), but having NO user interface for some functions

(and a rather, erm, BAROQUE interface for others) doesn't seem to be

sensible to me, either.

 

In the next time, I will try to show several points that might very well

frustrate new users (our institute is FULL of new users, and I DO hear

some complaints), and which can be corrected either VERY EASILY, or at

least without restructuring the whole program and giving everybody

headaches.

 

Andreas Weidner

 

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  • mhjerde
    mhjerde over 14 years ago

    There is little doubt that Cadsoft Eagle is a strong contender for the worst reverse-polish-notation user interface ever. But "make it Office-like" is too simple an answer.

     

    There are two main problems with the Eagle UI: It has a verb-noun task order and it is feature-oriented, not task oriented..

     

    1. Noun-verb means that you first select something and then do something with it. E.g. you click something and move it around. Verb-noun means you do it the other way around. In Eagle you first invoke the move command, then you group something, then you invoke the ‘move group’ command, then you move it. Most new users have never encoutered the verb-noun paradigm and of course find it incredibly backwards. Noun-verb is the way all other software in the galaxy works since the late 1970s and for good reasons. It is the way our brains work, and it makes continious feedback possible.

     

    2. Eagle is feature oriented and not task oriented. Task orientation means that the UI tries to support a workflow. The lack of integration between the library and the schematic/board editors is an example. Working on a board typically involves a number of roundtrips to the library, and for all practical purposes, the library is like opening a completely separate application. Eagle has a bunch of features but it seems like little effort has gone into making them work smoothly together towards the goal of getting a PCB designed.

     

    My impression is that Cadsoft suffers from the "real men don't ask for directions" view shared elsewhere in these comments. They haven't done anything about these issues in the last 15 years so why start now? It would probably be a huge task, the underlying software architecture might require major changes.  I like that Eagle never crashes, but hate everything else about it. It is goodbye to Eagle as soon as I can afford something better.

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  • mhjerde
    mhjerde over 14 years ago

    There is little doubt that Cadsoft Eagle is a strong contender for the worst reverse-polish-notation user interface ever. But "make it Office-like" is too simple an answer.

     

    There are two main problems with the Eagle UI: It has a verb-noun task order and it is feature-oriented, not task oriented..

     

    1. Noun-verb means that you first select something and then do something with it. E.g. you click something and move it around. Verb-noun means you do it the other way around. In Eagle you first invoke the move command, then you group something, then you invoke the ‘move group’ command, then you move it. Most new users have never encoutered the verb-noun paradigm and of course find it incredibly backwards. Noun-verb is the way all other software in the galaxy works since the late 1970s and for good reasons. It is the way our brains work, and it makes continious feedback possible.

     

    2. Eagle is feature oriented and not task oriented. Task orientation means that the UI tries to support a workflow. The lack of integration between the library and the schematic/board editors is an example. Working on a board typically involves a number of roundtrips to the library, and for all practical purposes, the library is like opening a completely separate application. Eagle has a bunch of features but it seems like little effort has gone into making them work smoothly together towards the goal of getting a PCB designed.

     

    My impression is that Cadsoft suffers from the "real men don't ask for directions" view shared elsewhere in these comments. They haven't done anything about these issues in the last 15 years so why start now? It would probably be a huge task, the underlying software architecture might require major changes.  I like that Eagle never crashes, but hate everything else about it. It is goodbye to Eagle as soon as I can afford something better.

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  • lix
    lix over 14 years ago in reply to mhjerde

    Morten Hjerde schrieb:

     

    There is little doubt that Cadsoft Eagle is a strong contender for the worst reverse-polish-notation user interface ever. But "make it Office-like" is too simple an answer.

     

    There are two main problems with the Eagle UI: It has a verb-noun task order and it is feature-oriented, not task oriented..

     

    1. Noun-verb means that you first select something and then do something with it. E.g. you click something and move it around. Verb-noun means you do it the other way around. In Eagle you first invoke the move command, then you group something, then you invoke the ‘move group’ command, then you move it. Most new users have never encoutered the verb-noun paradigm and of course find it incredibly backwards. Noun-verb is the way all other software in the galaxy works since the late 1970s and for good reasons. It is the way our brains work, and it makes continious feedback possible.

     

    2. Eagle is feature oriented and not task oriented. Task orientation means that the UI tries to support a workflow. The lack of integration between the library and the schematic/board editors is an example. Working on a board typically involves a number of roundtrips to the library, and for all practical purposes, the library is like opening a completely separate application. Eagle has a bunch of features but it seems like little effort has gone into making them work smoothly together towards the goal of getting a PCB designed.

     

    My impression is that Cadsoft suffers from the "real men don't ask for directions" view shared elsewhere in these comments. They haven't done anything about these issues in the last 15 years so why start now? It would probably be a huge task, the underlying software architecture might require major changes.  I like that Eagle never crashes, but hate everything else about it. It is goodbye to Eagle as soon as I can afford something better.

     

    I cannot agree more.

     

    @Andreas: I don't think the issue is to get an Office-like UI to Eagle. Sure, Office is a representative piece of Software for Windows (and MacOS X). In fact, as I have also mentioned in a previous e-mail, there are only a few couple of things to do in order to greatly increase the "compatibility" and the user friendliness of Eagle:

     

    * Use the right-click button for contextual menus consistently throughout the software

    * Replace the SelectComand:ChooseObject paradigm with a SelectObject:ApplyTransformation paradigm (except where it's not applicable, e.g. when placing parts, lines, vias, etc.)

    * Improve the icons look as well as the buttons placement and the menu structure

    * Improve the general operation of the library utility (which currently is really implemented as an afterthought, at least from the GUI perspective)

    * Remove the many minor inconsistencies throughout the program (e.g. save as... delete/new in Library)

    * Correct the numerous and annoying bugs or curious behaviours of the GUI (e.g. scrolling, incorrect/incomplete screen redraw, a.o.)

     

    Best regards,

     

    Lix

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  • e14 Contributor
    e14 Contributor over 14 years ago in reply to mhjerde

    Am 21.11.2011 11:25, schrieb Morten Hjerde:

    > In Eagle you first invoke the move command, then you group something,

    then you invoke the ‘move group’ command, then you move it.

     

    Actually, FIRST using MOVE doesn't work here: You first group, and THEN

    you move that group. As for number of clicks, in a lot of cases they are

    more or less identical this way or the other way.

     

    The way EAGLE does it now has disadvantages at some points and

    advantages at others. My impression always was that the things I myself

    do MOST need less clicks (or other actions) than the other way round.

    Take drawing schematics as an example:

      1. I first ADD lots of components from the library.

      2. I then, if not already properly positioned, MOVE them around

         until everything looks fine.

      3. I then place all the NETs.

      4. I then set all VALUEs.

    This means that I do NOT do things object-oriented (I add a component

    and afterwards do several things with it), but ACTION-oriented (I use

    every ACTION a lot of times before switching to another one). Especially

    with setting values, this approach has benefits: You select the action

    VALUE exactly ONCE and then click on each component to set hundreds of

    different values. The other way round, you would need to select each

    component separately, and for each trigger the VALUE changing. This more

    or less doubles the amount of necessary clicks.

     

    Of course modern user interfaces provide things like an 'object

    inspector' that can always be kept open to minimise clicking, but still

    it seems to be a bit more work clicking.

     

    For word processors and most graphics applications, your 'noun-verb'

    approach is EXACTLY the thing to go for, because each object has LOTS of

    attributes, and a lot of them need the SAME settings. For layout

    programs, the only attribute EVERY object needs is its value, and the

    values are OFTEN different. Therefore, EAGLE's 'verb-noun' approach is

    quite useful.

     

    OF COURSE NOT FOR NEW USERS. But in the long run...

     

    > Most new users have never encoutered the verb-noun paradigm and of

    course find it incredibly backwards.

     

    Yes. But actually, for circuits, it IS quite useful, independent of what

    people THINK of it.

     

    > It is the way our brains work, and it makes continious feedback possible.

     

    For circuits, I think like above mentioned. For writing texts, I think

    differently. Vector graphics programs need completely different thinking

    than bitmap programs. One simply cannot achieve best results EVERYWHERE

    with the same user interface. The user interface must adjust to the

    task, but make it as easy for the user as possible.

     

    Anyway, I don't think CadSoft will adopt the 'noun-verb' approach in the

    foreseeable future, because

      5. its current structure has its advantages and

      6. it would perhaps be a complete source-code rewrite.

     

    2. Eagle is feature orinted and not task oriented.

     

    I wouldn't call it 'feature-oriented', but more 'command-oriented', but

    yes, that IS a big problem. EAGLE's user interface shows what every

    COMMAND can do, the wording in dialog boxes (if they exist at all) is

    more programmer's syntax than any human-understandable term, etc. I

    myself do not see ANY benefit in leaving that as it is now. Especially

    since changes here are not really too hard to implement, anyway.

     

    They haven't done anything about these issues in the last 15 years so why start now?

     

    Well, they did some VERY nice things, but REALLY not enough.

     

    I like that Eagle never crashes, but hate everything else about it. It is goodbye to Eagle as soon as I can afford something better.

     

    Here it is, CadSoft: Not only NEW users sometimes shy away from EAGLE,

    but even CURRENT users might think about switching to some other

    software due to a strange GUI. You should try to prevent that...

     

    Andreas Weidner

     

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