element14 Community
element14 Community
    Register Log In
  • Site
  • Search
  • Log In Register
  • Community Hub
    Community Hub
    • What's New on element14
    • Feedback and Support
    • Benefits of Membership
    • Personal Blogs
    • Members Area
    • Achievement Levels
  • Learn
    Learn
    • Ask an Expert
    • eBooks
    • element14 presents
    • Learning Center
    • Tech Spotlight
    • STEM Academy
    • Webinars, Training and Events
    • Learning Groups
  • Technologies
    Technologies
    • 3D Printing
    • FPGA
    • Industrial Automation
    • Internet of Things
    • Power & Energy
    • Sensors
    • Technology Groups
  • Challenges & Projects
    Challenges & Projects
    • Design Challenges
    • element14 presents Projects
    • Project14
    • Arduino Projects
    • Raspberry Pi Projects
    • Project Groups
  • Products
    Products
    • Arduino
    • Avnet & Tria Boards Community
    • Dev Tools
    • Manufacturers
    • Multicomp Pro
    • Product Groups
    • Raspberry Pi
    • RoadTests & Reviews
  • About Us
  • Store
    Store
    • Visit Your Store
    • Choose another store...
      • Europe
      •  Austria (German)
      •  Belgium (Dutch, French)
      •  Bulgaria (Bulgarian)
      •  Czech Republic (Czech)
      •  Denmark (Danish)
      •  Estonia (Estonian)
      •  Finland (Finnish)
      •  France (French)
      •  Germany (German)
      •  Hungary (Hungarian)
      •  Ireland
      •  Israel
      •  Italy (Italian)
      •  Latvia (Latvian)
      •  
      •  Lithuania (Lithuanian)
      •  Netherlands (Dutch)
      •  Norway (Norwegian)
      •  Poland (Polish)
      •  Portugal (Portuguese)
      •  Romania (Romanian)
      •  Russia (Russian)
      •  Slovakia (Slovak)
      •  Slovenia (Slovenian)
      •  Spain (Spanish)
      •  Sweden (Swedish)
      •  Switzerland(German, French)
      •  Turkey (Turkish)
      •  United Kingdom
      • Asia Pacific
      •  Australia
      •  China
      •  Hong Kong
      •  India
      • Japan
      •  Korea (Korean)
      •  Malaysia
      •  New Zealand
      •  Philippines
      •  Singapore
      •  Taiwan
      •  Thailand (Thai)
      • Vietnam
      • Americas
      •  Brazil (Portuguese)
      •  Canada
      •  Mexico (Spanish)
      •  United States
      Can't find the country/region you're looking for? Visit our export site or find a local distributor.
  • Translate
  • Profile
  • Settings
Autodesk EAGLE
  • Products
  • More
Autodesk EAGLE
EAGLE User Support (English) Bottom Layer Component Population
  • Blog
  • Forum
  • Documents
  • Events
  • Polls
  • Files
  • Members
  • Mentions
  • Sub-Groups
  • Tags
  • More
  • Cancel
  • New
Join Autodesk EAGLE to participate - click to join for free!
Actions
  • Share
  • More
  • Cancel
Forum Thread Details
  • State Verified Answer
  • Replies 12 replies
  • Subscribers 180 subscribers
  • Views 1787 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Related

Bottom Layer Component Population

Former Member
Former Member over 11 years ago

Hi All,

 

I have recently been using Eagle for a slightly more adventurous design, where SMD components are to be placed on both sides of the multilayer PCB. This is possible with the wonders of modern assembly techniques, where one side of the board is maintained under the melting temperature of the solder paste and the other is allowed to re-flow. Sweet tech guys.

 

Having driven into a whole world of pain with Eagle recently with Hierarchical Design (see my previous post Eagle 7 Hierarchical Design - REPLICATING LAYOUT BLOCKS), I was dismayed to have the rug pulled from under me again by the latest massive Eagle Fail, namely that of properly instigating reverse side component placement.

 

Here are a few positives to temper the, well erm TEMPER.

 

Thanks for the Eagle 6.x-7 upgrade guys. sweet install and some nice enhancements, 100% stable so far and I love the general way Eagle works. Managed after some sideways steps to import some lovely curved traces from Illustrator to wrap around curves in the PCB design, have successfully exported to .dxf etc. Its a little limited, but all good so far. Just been playing with Design Link, which is useful. Funny how it only offers Farnell as a supplier...........

 

To keep it simple, here's the workflow:

 

0) Spend £500 on Eagle, (with the likelihood of needing to double that to make the larger board design I have in the pipeline).

1)  Create a myriad of components

2)  Create a schematic

3)  Jump over to the layout and start populating the board with all the fun of summer

4)  Periodically select and [mirror] the bottom side placement components, such that the pads switch from top copper to bottom and the outlines, document, silk etc flip respectfully over to their appropriate layers

5)  Spend another two weeks piddling around getting all the intricate details taken care of and drawing up BOMs etc

6)  Run the final Gerber data past the board houses and get the green light

7)  Upload the gem of a design to the supplier.

8)  Take a break before pressing go

9)  Take one final glance and scratch my head as to why a transistor has its Gate and Source swapped on the layout

10) Hit the roof.

 

The mirroring of components, although it shows all the signs of switching the components to the under side of the PCB, does not do this. It leaves all the connections reversed and there is absolutely no satisfactory way of resolving this. (enter embarrassingly obvious solution here PLEASE)

 

(caveat: it's 'fine' if you just want to mirror two lead components, as the effect is not seem as long as their pads are symmetrical)

 

I am completely perplexed, surely the core functional reason for flipping components over is that they are usefully represented after the flip. Why would I want to flip an op amp and thence leave it essentially perfectly ready to be assembled on the top side of the bottom copper layer. Yes, literally inside the FR4 material on the reverse side of the pads. That my friends is mind bogglingly stupid.

 

The only solutions I can find are:

 

1) Create new versions of all the components I want to place on the reverse side with bottom copper pads in place of the top copper ones and wire them all up, supply all the attributes etc. This sucks, as the time involved is much longer than the time it is going to take for my to write this post, run around the yard screaming, spend time with a doctor and redraw them by hand using an etch-a-sketch. The origin also ends up on the wrong side and two databases of components need to be maintained if any are to be used on the reverse of the design

 

2) Create new versions of all the components I want to place on the reverse side with all the top copper pads in reverse position from the data sheet and wire them all up, supply all the attributes etc, add them to the schematic and then flip them, hopefully leaving them correctly corrected. This sucks for all the same reasons, plus its counter intuitive and prone to errors and mind boggling debugging fails.

 

3) Get wasted and throw the computer with the Eagle installation into the sea.

 

Although 3) looks like a pretty good option, there are knock on implications. I wanted to see if anyone else has any better ideas before I go down that route.

 

J

  • Sign in to reply
  • Cancel
Parents
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 11 years ago

    All,

     

    Indeed, I was wrong. The integrity of the board is fine and as per the answers above there is no issue with reverse connection of the components. The issue was with understanding that the board is viewed from above and not from below in the case of the bottom copper). In the cold light of day this makes perfect sense, but after 15 hours staring at the design, it was not so clear.

     

    Many thanks for the replies and apologies to Eagle peeps for slandering their product!

     

    Best

     

    J

    • Cancel
    • Vote Up 0 Vote Down
    • Sign in to reply
    • Verify Answer
    • Cancel
  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 11 years ago in reply to Former Member

    Glad to see I'm not the only one with palm prints on my forehead from one

    of those "duh" moments (and it is amazing how many times something obvious

    gets overlooked - like the Martian spacecraft where one team was using

    imperial units and the other MKS - the numbers matched, but the units

    didn't and it crashed.  Talk about red faces !! )  Thanks for letting all

    know what the issue was.

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

    • Cancel
    • Vote Up 0 Vote Down
    • Sign in to reply
    • Verify Answer
    • Cancel
Reply
  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 11 years ago in reply to Former Member

    Glad to see I'm not the only one with palm prints on my forehead from one

    of those "duh" moments (and it is amazing how many times something obvious

    gets overlooked - like the Martian spacecraft where one team was using

    imperial units and the other MKS - the numbers matched, but the units

    didn't and it crashed.  Talk about red faces !! )  Thanks for letting all

    know what the issue was.

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

    • Cancel
    • Vote Up 0 Vote Down
    • Sign in to reply
    • Verify Answer
    • Cancel
Children
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 11 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Does my recollection serve me right that the Hubble had a US vs European dimensions error as well or something of that ilk? I seem to remember that it  ended up completely unfocused once deployed and there either ended up being a new mission to repair or something?

     

    ! silly humans

    • Cancel
    • Vote Up 0 Vote Down
    • Sign in to reply
    • Verify Answer
    • Cancel
  • autodeskguest
    0 autodeskguest over 11 years ago in reply to Former Member

    There was some error in grinding the mirror and it was off by some very

    small number that did result in a focus issue.  They were able to install

    some additional hardware that compensated for the problem on a latter

    shuttle mission, but I don't remember exactly how they ended off by the

    small amount.  Yes, we can work to the smallest details and often it is the

    obvious that gets overlooked.  I love the series on TV called "engineering

    disasters" - some of those you just have to shake your head.

     

    mikey

     

    --

    Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

     

    • Cancel
    • Vote Up 0 Vote Down
    • Sign in to reply
    • Verify Answer
    • Cancel
  • dukepro
    0 dukepro over 11 years ago in reply to Former Member

    On 09/03/2014 12:03 PM, Jacob Skinner wrote:

    Does my recollection serve me right that the Hubble had a US vs European

    dimensions error as well or something of that ilk? I seem to remember

    that it  ended up completely unfocused once deployed and there either

    ended up being a new mission to repair or something?

     

    It did have an error, but it was not related to units.  The official

    explanation of this optical defect is called "spherical aberration", and

    was caused by the malfunction of a measuring device used during the

    polishing of the mirror leaving the edges of the mirror slightly too flat.

     

    Consider, however, that Hubble's origin can be traced to the KH-11

    digital imaging reconnaissance spacecraft - fancy words for a spy

    satellite.  The KH-11 was designed to photograph objects on the surface

    of the Earth a mere 200 - 400 miles below (the exact orbital altitude

    was varied and classified) and the primary mirror was polished to this

    requirement.  The focal length of 400 miles (KH-11) versus infinity

    (Hubble,) isn't much, but it's enough to produce a problem with the Hubble.

     

    The hypothesis is that Hubble's primary mirror was polished to KH-11

    specifications, causing objects several orders of magnitude farther away

    to loose focus.

     

    A brief history of this problem can be read at

    http://www.spacetelescope.org/about/history/aberration_problem/.  This

    link shows photos both before and after corrective optics were install

    in-orbit.

     

    A long list of similarities between the KH-11 and Hubble can be found at

    http://www.americaspace.com/?p=20825.

     

    Enjoy,

        - Chuck

     

     

    Attachments:
    6864.att1.html.zip
    • Cancel
    • Vote Up 0 Vote Down
    • Sign in to reply
    • Verify Answer
    • Cancel
element14 Community

element14 is the first online community specifically for engineers. Connect with your peers and get expert answers to your questions.

  • Members
  • Learn
  • Technologies
  • Challenges & Projects
  • Products
  • Store
  • About Us
  • Feedback & Support
  • FAQs
  • Terms of Use
  • Privacy Policy
  • Legal and Copyright Notices
  • Sitemap
  • Cookies

An Avnet Company © 2025 Premier Farnell Limited. All Rights Reserved.

Premier Farnell Ltd, registered in England and Wales (no 00876412), registered office: Farnell House, Forge Lane, Leeds LS12 2NE.

ICP 备案号 10220084.

Follow element14

  • X
  • Facebook
  • linkedin
  • YouTube