Bloody Annoyed

@ Morgaine

As you are almost certainly aware, most if not all of embedded boards of all types do not ship with documentation on a CD precisely to save money (way ahead of you there) with all

documentation provided online. This is almost universal everywhere else now so why do you think it is exceptional is this case ?

The CD included with the Gertboard has several useful free tools (at least for people that use Microsoft Windows) and is provided by a source (CooCox) that is not related to E14 or

the Gertboard although the software provided on the CD can be used to compile applications for either one. It is provided with the Gertboard for promotional purposes not as a

part of the product itself.

@ Michael Kellett

It does not take either fast or continuous Internet access to download the document. It does take a couple of minutes to find and download the documentation from E14.

Gary Stewart wrote:

 

most if not all of embedded boards of all types do not ship with documentation on a CD precisely to save money [cut].  This is almost universal everywhere else now so why do you think it is exceptional is this case ?

I don't recall writing nor suggesting that it was exceptional.  I merely agreed that the original poster's point was a fair one, given that the CD was provided, but was lacking in important items like documentation despite having plenty of room remaining for it.  It fell between two stools, raising the cost of the product by including a CD but not making the most of it.  A suboptimal choice.  I suggested a couple of improved choices under the assumption that the provider desires to improve the customer experience.  I suspect that most do.

It does not take either fast or continuous Internet access to download the document. It does take a couple of minutes to find and download the documentation from E14.

You're projecting your personal capabilities and experience onto others.  If it were as you claim, the customer would not have felt compelled to express his annoyance at the product in this thread.

@ Morgaine

Finding documentation on a CD shipped with most embedded hardware is exceptional. Finding documentation on the web is normal.  Once again, it was a

promotional CD provided by a third party, not an official part of the Gertboard package.

I am not projecting anything onto anyone. I gave a direct response to the assertion that it somehow requires a fast and continuous (?) Internet connection to get the

documentation. It doesn't. The original poster obviously has an Internet connection and that, plus a little effort (enter "gertboard documentation" in the search box

at the top of the main E14 page) to find what he is looking for. If he has a Raspberry Pi (I would assume he must) he is probably already familiar with this process.

Your points are fair enough, although they don't perceive the issue from the customer perspective:  whether a CD is provided by a third party or by the  producer of the product is immaterial to the customer.  It's a CD, period.

What has happened here seems to be that the producer is (presumably) benefitting from the CooCox promotion without considering two side effects of receiving the CD:

1. Non-Windows users are getting annoyed because supplied software is useless to them.
2. Customers find a CD enclosed but discover that it does not contain their product documentation.

There's not much doubt that this may be found annoying.  YMMV on the "bloody" part.

We're not talking about the end of the world here, it's quite small fry.  But it is worthy of note that a customer was annoyed enough to write in, and that probably means that there are lots of other customers also annoyed but it's within their tolerance limits.

Is there room for improvement?  Sure.

@ Morgaine

I understand it perfectly well from a customer perspective. I am a repeat customer with E14 and several other embedded board manufacturers/retailers.

Online documentation and software for this type of product is just the way it is across the entire industry no matter how angry it makes a few customers

(the fewer the better of course). Obviously the main reason is cost and from their perspective I understand that too. As long as it is fairly easy to find

and download, and most of them that I can remember have been so far, then I have no problem with it.

On the E14 page where Gertboards are sold there are easy to see links to the user manual and software directly above the first Overview section.

Gary Stewart wrote:

 

... is just the way it is across the entire industry no matter how angry it makes a few customers

I have no time for the defeatism of the "that's just the way it is" worldview, and even less for the quite astonishing "no matter how angry it makes a few customers" part.  I won't comment further on the latter, because its myopia speaks for itself, given that a business prospers by pleasing its customers.

On the former, engineers create and improve things, it's what they do.  This side of Utopia, nothing is perfect, and everything can be improved.  That includes the customer experience, and here is evidence of customer experience that fell short by a sufficiently large margin to provoke feedback.  A lot of businesses pay for customer feedback, including Element14.  To reject it when offered freely is pretty silly.

"[That's] just the way it is across the entire industry" doesn't have to be used as a defeatist's rationale.  It is also an opportunity to do better compared to others in the industry, and that's the usual path to business success.  All I've suggested is simple ways to improve the customer experience, and it puzzles me why anyone would want to argue against that goal.

Morgaine wrote:

What has happened here seems to be that the producer is (presumably) benefitting from the CooCox promotion without considering two side effects of receiving the CD:

1. Non-Windows users are getting annoyed because supplied software is useless to them.
2. Customers find a CD enclosed but discover that it does not contain their product documentation.

1. Read my post again. It states that the software on the CD is useful only for people that use Windows. Personally I would never use Windows for this kind of development unless I was

     forced to. Luckily if you go to the CooCox web site you can find non-Windows versions as well.

2. Lots of products come with third party CDs and I am not aware of any third party CDs that include documentation for the product you bought that they came with. The top side of CD in question

     is one big CooCox label that explicitly describes what it contains (Free and open ARM Cortex M development tools).

Morgaine wrote:

I have no time for the defeatism of the "that's just the way it is" worldview, and even less for the quite astonishing "no matter how angry it makes a few customers" part.  I won't comment further on the latter, because its myopia speaks for itself, given that a business prospers by pleasing its customers.

Thanks for completely ignoring the economic aspect. Manufacturers/retailers literally can't afford to which is why it is so universal. It also helps keep their costs down which is sometimes good for customers too.

There will always be angry customers, some for good reasons (these should be fixed), and some for little or no reason at all. In this case there is another way to almost immediately  get the documentation that

is needed and only requires only a little effort to do so. So why all the anger ? There are several advantages to online documentation/software. It is more likely that what you get will be up to date. It is a lot easier

for  the manufacturer to distribute updated documentation/software. It is easier and faster for the customer to get the updates by downloading them. And it is cheaper. The only advantage I can think of for CDs is

if you  don't have an Internet connection and it does not apply in this case. It may be difficult ordering a Gertboard from E14 without one too although here in the states you can order one by phone or snail mail

from a catalog published (how quaint) by MCM Electronics.

Businesses prosper by selling products or services that its customers want/need. The world has many examples of very successful businesses that are not well liked by a large number of their customers.

Banks and oil/gas companies are two that immediately come to mind. There are more.

Morgaine wrote:

On the former, engineers create and improve things, it's what they do.  This side of Utopia, nothing is perfect, and everything can be improved.  That includes the customer experience, and here is evidence of customer experience that fell short by a sufficiently large margin to provoke feedback.  A lot of businesses pay for customer feedback, including Element14.  To reject it when offered freely is pretty silly.

I do not need you to tell me what engineers do. I worked with them as an engineering technician, and I have worked as a hardware and software design engineer for over 20 years myself. Having done so

I can tell you that also on this side of Utopia there are limits, often driven by economics, but also by customer preferences (not always good ones) as to what part of, how, or how much something can

be improved. Engineers have to work with these limitations every day. The evidence you speak of is one feedback based on getting a clearly labelled third party promotion CD with free software and

getting very angry (a more accurate description than large margin) because it did not, as it normally would not have, included documentation that is readily available from the web site where the hardware

was purchased. So again, why all the anger ? Finally, not everybody will agree on what is and what is not an "improved customer experience" sometimes even when it is clear to most at least that it is,

much less, as is the case here, when it is not that clear. Call it human nature. I think that is what is  continually keeping Utopia at bay.

Morgaine wrote:

What has happened here seems to be that the producer is (presumably) benefitting from the CooCox promotion without considering two side effects of receiving the CD:

1. Non-Windows users are getting annoyed because supplied software is useless to them.
2. Customers find a CD enclosed but discover that it does not contain their product documentation.

1. Read my post again. It states that the software on the CD is useful only for people that use Windows. Personally I would never use Windows for this kind of development unless I was

     forced to. Luckily if you go to the CooCox web site you can find non-Windows versions as well.

2. Lots of products come with third party CDs and I am not aware of any third party CDs that include documentation for the product you bought that they came with. The top side of CD in question

     is one big CooCox label that explicitly describes what it contains (Free and open ARM Cortex M development tools).

Morgaine wrote:

I have no time for the defeatism of the "that's just the way it is" worldview, and even less for the quite astonishing "no matter how angry it makes a few customers" part.  I won't comment further on the latter, because its myopia speaks for itself, given that a business prospers by pleasing its customers.

Thanks for completely ignoring the economic aspect. Manufacturers/retailers literally can't afford to which is why it is so universal. It also helps keep their costs down which is sometimes good for customers too.

There will always be angry customers, some for good reasons (these should be fixed), and some for little or no reason at all. In this case there is another way to almost immediately  get the documentation that

is needed and only requires only a little effort to do so. So why all the anger ? There are several advantages to online documentation/software. It is more likely that what you get will be up to date. It is a lot easier

for  the manufacturer to distribute updated documentation/software. It is easier and faster for the customer to get the updates by downloading them. And it is cheaper. The only advantage I can think of for CDs is

if you  don't have an Internet connection and it does not apply in this case. It may be difficult ordering a Gertboard from E14 without one too although here in the states you can order one by phone or snail mail

from a catalog published (how quaint) by MCM Electronics.

Businesses prosper by selling products or services that its customers want/need. The world has many examples of very successful businesses that are not well liked by a large number of their customers.

Banks and oil/gas companies are two that immediately come to mind. There are more.

Morgaine wrote:

On the former, engineers create and improve things, it's what they do.  This side of Utopia, nothing is perfect, and everything can be improved.  That includes the customer experience, and here is evidence of customer experience that fell short by a sufficiently large margin to provoke feedback.  A lot of businesses pay for customer feedback, including Element14.  To reject it when offered freely is pretty silly.

I do not need you to tell me what engineers do. I worked with them as an engineering technician, and I have worked as a hardware and software design engineer for over 20 years myself. Having done so

I can tell you that also on this side of Utopia there are limits, often driven by economics, but also by customer preferences (not always good ones) as to what part of, how, or how much something can

be improved. Engineers have to work with these limitations every day. The evidence you speak of is one feedback based on getting a clearly labelled third party promotion CD with free software and

getting very angry (a more accurate description than large margin) because it did not, as it normally would not have, included documentation that is readily available from the web site where the hardware

was purchased. So again, why all the anger ? Finally, not everybody will agree on what is and what is not an "improved customer experience" sometimes even when it is clear to most at least that it is,

much less, as is the case here, when it is not that clear. Call it human nature. I think that is what is  continually keeping Utopia at bay.

The evidence you speak of is one feedback

Actually, there are frequent complaints of the unnecessary difficulties of creating an E14 login just to obtain docs for purchased products.

See for example:

http://www.element14.com/community/thread/25378?tstart=30

http://www.element14.com/community/thread/25299?tstart=60

http://www.element14.com/community/thread/24950?tstart=0

@coder27

Actually, there are frequent complaints of the unnecessary difficulties of creating an E14 login just to obtain docs for purchased products.

1 ) I was able to place an order after about an hour of -- around with your registration process,

An hour to register to figure out how to register ? OK ?

The other two are not about difficulties with creating a login but simply that registration was required to look at documentation, neither said they had purchased

products. While being required to register to download documentation is not the best idea, given the "community" nature of the site it is on I can think of a few

of good reasons (security, spam control, user control) why registration is used.

I do agree that requiring a separate registration for downloading documentation after registering to purchase a product is a problem that should be fixed.

Easy to see links to the documentation were present on the "top" page used when he purchased the Gertboard. After that I'm not sure how he expected to find documentation

without searching for it. As I said in an earlier post, I have ordered quite a few embedded boards from several different manufacturers and retailers and they all required me to

download all documentation/software for them from their web sites. As far as I can remember few if any of them required me to register to get the documentation but none of

them were "community" sites either. The Raspberry Pi he wanted use with the Gertboard did not ship with any documentation either so at least some indication of what to

expect was present.

@ Michael

So I guess the lesson there is to make sure you have everything you need before you go on vacation and lose access to the Internet. Doesn't this fall into the just using

good sense category ?

E14 had no control over what was on the CD and could not modify it if they wanted too. It was a promotional CD of free software tools provided by a third party and was

clearly marked as such.