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3D Printing Forum Closed-loop control for low-cost 3D printers
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  • closed-loop
  • servo-control
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Closed-loop control for low-cost 3D printers

morgaine
morgaine over 11 years ago

A challenge given to Ben Heck in March of last year was "Challenge - cheap 3D printer" (design a 3D printer more cheaply), and that thread continues to receive replies to this date.  Unfortunately nobody in that thread actually addressed the matter as a design issue.  Instead, most of the replies (including from Ben) seem to have addressed an entirely different question, how to build the same kind of 3D printer as you can buy today, but for less money.

 

Those are two completely different questions.  It was pointed out by Ben that because of the race to the bottom by a huge number of manufacturers, the current designs can't be made a lot cheaper while still retaining the same speed and accuracy.  That's probably correct with respect to current standard designs, but it says nothing at all about different designs.

 

So, this thread suggests a different design approach that may offer a solution, and it's a pretty natural step to take.

 

A useful observation with which to start is that the accuracy and precision obtainable with today's RepRap-style models stems from the design of their stepper motors and the limitations inherent in screw drives and belts and pulleys and the rigidity of their physical construction.  Because of this, if you retain the existing design model but in the quest for lower cost you compromise on one of these areas, you are very likely to lose the necessary degree of printing accuracy even if you are performing steps at very high resolution, so that's not likely to be a good way forward.  Printing with high precision in the wrong place is not helpful.

 

That observation about accuracy and precision leads us directly to a solution though.  Engineers know full well how to gain high and definable accuracy without each of the components being manufactured to extreme tolerances, and that's by using closed-loop control with negative feedback, the basis of servo-systems.  In a closed-loop system, the only thing that needs to be highly accurate and with known precision is determination of current position, and the heart of that need be nothing more costly than a very accurately printed graticule which can be produced for pennies.  Given the ability to know where the operating head is located very accurately in each relevant axis (not necessarily Cartesian), the only other requirement for maintaining that limit of accuracy is rigidity of coupling between sensors and operating head, ie. the hot end in a 3D printer.  Very importantly, there is no need for rigidity in the motor assemblies --- as long as they're moving the head in the right direction, that's good enough.

 

So, I'll recast the original question differently and tie it to this specific way forward:

 

"How can we design a 3D printer based on closed-loop control to gain high accuracy and overcome low cost construction through use of negative feedback?"

 

It's mostly a matter of examining alternative physical arrangements to find one with good rigidity while also having low suspended mass and being amenable to construction with today's open-loop 3D printers as a stepping stone.  It's worth pointing out that virtually all 2D inkjet printers already use closed-loop control --- if you take one apart you'll find a positional sensor and fine graticule in there somewhere to provide very high accuracy in one dimension at the lowest cost.

 

Once we start thinking about closed-loop control for 3D printers, many possible advantages start to appear:

 

  • As already mentioned, it compensates for low-quality parts, so prices could fall much lower.
  • Closed loop operation compensates for latitude at assembly time as well, also leading to lower costs.
  • Very much higher accuracy than we have today is possible, and that cannot be done open loop.
  • Motors of many different kinds can be used, AC, DC, brushed, brushless, linear, and also steppers.
  • If steppers are used in a closed-loop system, you can overdrive them without worrying about "lost steps" because the steps aren't used for position control anyway, yet you still retain the advantage of high holding torque.
  • Much higher speeds are possible than we have today because of the two-fold advantage of wider motor choice and arbitrarily high acceleration while the control loop seeks to its desired position.
  • Accuracy and precision are more independently controllable in closed-loop systems.  This provides more opportunities for cost reduction through tradeoffs, as well as dynamic optimization in favour of speed, for example on in-fill.  In open-loop printers with stepper motors, the step size places a limit on precision of positional control, but this is very rarely reflected in the accuracy of actual positioning which is primarily determined by physical construction.

 

I'm sure there are many other benefits.

 

The main disadvantage is that this direction requires new thinking, new solutions.  And there's the challenge! image

 

Morgaine.

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Top Replies

  • morgaine
    morgaine over 11 years ago +3
    The topic above is deliberately open-ended and proposes nothing more than closed-loop control, hopefully to encourage people to think laterally and very widely instead of being shackled by a specific construction…
  • morgaine
    morgaine over 11 years ago in reply to Former Member +2
    I'm talking about making the work head's position be determinable to high levels of accuracy --- the distinction between accuracy and precision is important in this context, because we need to know the…
  • vsluiter
    vsluiter over 11 years ago in reply to morgaine +2
    Hi Morgaine, It's what Nanotec is already selling for industrial use: stepper motors driven as 2-phase brushless DC motors. Very nice features as high torque, high accuracy, low noise....
Parents
  • pileofrogs
    pileofrogs over 8 years ago

    Hi all.  One of the most important lessons I've learned is to measure the thing you're doing, not some proxy for that thing, if at all possible.  I was trying to figure out how to apply that idea to 3d printing when I came across this thread.  This is the only place I've been able to find with folks talking about this idea.

     

    The holy-grail might be something that compares the actual 3d print job to a file and can adjust on the fly.  Maybe it would have a grinder tool to remove mistakes?  Maybe it could just use the hot-end to melt and slurp up some material?  Achieving this anytime soon is probably unrealistic, at least for me.

     

    A more reasonable goal might be to track the position of the print head.  This appears totally doable to me.  If this can be achieved, you could build a 3d printer out of cardboard and twine if you wanted. 

     

    I like the idea of computer vision.  Say you want to know the position of the head to 1/10th of a millimeter.  You'd  be able to watch one dimension for 120 millimeters (more or less) with a 720p camera.  You could add cameras to add build size.  You could build a periscope that takes up part of the field of view and double the resolution on that one axis (and you could go crazy with mirrors and prisms and get all kinds of resolution out of a single camera, but that's probably silly).   Anyway, the resolution problem can be defeated with a combination of more cameras, better cameras and silly tricks.

     

    I'm not fond of the idea of feedback only within the stepper.  This only helps you with problems that the stepper can detect and correct for.  It doesn't help reduce the cost of the materials you need for the printer.  If one of your guide rods is bent, this doesn't help you.  With a system that tracks the position of the actual head, it can compensate for cheaper design materials.  I'm also not fond of having some kind of measuring stick (graticule?) because you'd have to manufacture that thing to whatever tolerance you needed.  If that's the only thing that works, there's probably tricks that can make one of those for cheap, though.

     

    Other ideas that might work, include some kind of trim pot triangulation or some kind of distance measuring that's accurate to sub millimeter size.  I imagine the trim pots as a rod that connects from the print head to a stationary joystick type thing.  When the head moves, it moves the joystick.  Get 3 of those and you have 3d.  Measuring devices would work in a pretty obvious way.  You'd have to calibrate/train the printer because you couldn't trust the sensors/trim pots/printer frame to be uniform or even to be stable over time.

     

    Of course, that only addresses part of the loop.  You also need your printer to be able to take gcode in and tell the steppers (or whatever) to adjust while it's in the middle of a print.  I'm not sure that's something that would be easy to implement.  As it sits, the printer has to take gcode, convert it to steps and send the steps out to the motor.  If you built in feedback, the processor would have to check for errors after each step/micostep/whatever.  I'm assuming that the actual image processing (or whatever) is done on a different, beefier, processor and the printer itself only has to worry about accepting feedback and correcting the commands to the motors.  Still, that sounds like a fair amount of stuff to stick into what is probably the most inner loop of the printer's code.  Or maybe it already exists?  I should just go look at the code.

     

    Frankly, this sounds so doable that either I'm missing the real problem or someone has already done it.  I'm willing to sacrifice print speed for high quality from a cheap printer.

     

    If somehow this isn't either impossible or done already, I'm considering trying it.

     

    I think I'd start at the printer firmware.  Make sure it can actually do something with feedback.  If it doesn't already have that capability, that's something I could probably contribute.  Even if the computer vision isn't viable, having the firmware ready for when someone does come up with something that works, would be really useful.  I've got a marlin firmware, but the idea should be applicable pretty widely.

     

    After that, I could just try to get one axis going on a small build area.  That would be a proof of concept and I could refine it from there.  If I got that far, I bet smarter people than me would take off and run with it and we'd have a new generation of cheaper and better printers.

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  • munchit1
    munchit1 over 8 years ago in reply to pileofrogs

    as far as i can see..

     

    two ticker tapes, one on the x one on the Y.

     

    x 234 = 10MM

    X254 = 20MM

    x 652 = 71.5MM.... and so on gives you an exact locasion based on the print plastik.  print a line and measure it...look at the printer software that states 356 clicks on the X axis and enter the measurement. could it get any simpler?

     

    wouldnt even matter if the lines on the ticker tape werent exacly accurate because you's simply measure it and assign that measurent to whatever count was on the sofware, this way if anything was amis it wouldnt matter.

     

    people ask why close loop a stepper? ermm 200 tiney teath all at sizes to a tolerence, the longer that motor turns the more times the counts out, only a fraction at a time like, but 2000 million times later its gunna be a millimeter or so..posably lol.

    i've been on a google bull s***t wading search, and basicaly the motors run better with a built in closed loop afair, quiter and less watage used etc, but non the less if a belt stretch's or a pully cacks up the count at the motor is fine and away we prints in some other locasion. after all the main point wasnt the luvly sales pitch of you have no choise so buy this, the whole point is about geting the plastik down right where it should be.

     

    tbh stepper accuracy on a cheepo set up can be down to 1/100'th of mm on a narmal 200x210x bed size(ish),and yes they can, mine does it..or did it before the replace the barings n smoothy board(the driver went and smoothy customs n exise say 'go away' in pritty english..) but...as the time goes on they start to run out, yet ageeeeen and ageeeen...into the perpetual get the print right, blasttt it! replace a part, reset up..print a bit then reset up then print a while longer then reset and recalibrate and sooooooooo on...drives yu up the wall doesnt it.

    he maintanence to the nozzle end in particular will always be there be it a 5 quid set up or the rebranded and finished properly 60 quid a rip off...plastik sticks and burns dunt it lol..(polish the 5 quid turds they work fine).

     

    the main catagries or 'traps' people fall into are things like the 'hobby of printing' entails build a machine and finaly get it running.. or...some one who wants a machine to print parts with a use, Funily enough if you want it to work boy do they add on the bucks big style, yawn. (the hobby goes are 'expected' to shell out money based on an anual estimasion of hobby exspendature..i.e. yu 'spend' is the hobby, or at least by the time the vendor desides on your behalf what you'd exspect to pay..endlesly lol.

     

    half the 'new' products and kickstarts with their honest to god impaired geniuos aproach (in american thats 'and god bless america with the gods honest truth) are literaly chinese already in the general market goods abroad that get renamed with a good old brittish badge....and those nasty old chinese just copied it before they could get it on the go! lol...blah blah blah...

    basicaly the market is indeedly closed up tight, you buy this this n this then argue the toss with the trolls about it. or you go profesional and triple/quodrouple to just find out ahhh yes...BS all along wasnt it.

     

     

    ................if the steps produced or should i say pulses 'counted' were readily readable the whole proces of teeth pully's cogs and equasions would be obsolete...6000 pulses moves to x 500 clicks...measure it..lol same thing over and over again, it would be far easier/simpler to aproach the whole deal from this type of angle.. the info is in the existing program some where, it has to be to generate the pulse train per steps.. and then to base it on a pully ratio equasion to get the shape from the G-code file. somewhere it comands 'X' amount of steps..DISPLAY IT..dohhh. at 50 years old its looking horably like i'll have to become a programmer, just intime to be too blind to care if the prints are straight or pritty lol. eeeeee....

     

     

    45 quid per stepper motor only 'reflects' the 'hobby-ists' spending hobby. i.e. it's not the participating that counts, it's how you spend about it, and how much forum use you can dominate with your cash flow. 

     

     

    helmit on..table ducked under..but hey ho i'm dead any way lol.

     

     

    for 40 quid you get a picture printer scanner............with it all included, not only that its very old hat!!  so who's getting a milking?

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  • munchit1
    munchit1 over 8 years ago in reply to pileofrogs

    as far as i can see..

     

    two ticker tapes, one on the x one on the Y.

     

    x 234 = 10MM

    X254 = 20MM

    x 652 = 71.5MM.... and so on gives you an exact locasion based on the print plastik.  print a line and measure it...look at the printer software that states 356 clicks on the X axis and enter the measurement. could it get any simpler?

     

    wouldnt even matter if the lines on the ticker tape werent exacly accurate because you's simply measure it and assign that measurent to whatever count was on the sofware, this way if anything was amis it wouldnt matter.

     

    people ask why close loop a stepper? ermm 200 tiney teath all at sizes to a tolerence, the longer that motor turns the more times the counts out, only a fraction at a time like, but 2000 million times later its gunna be a millimeter or so..posably lol.

    i've been on a google bull s***t wading search, and basicaly the motors run better with a built in closed loop afair, quiter and less watage used etc, but non the less if a belt stretch's or a pully cacks up the count at the motor is fine and away we prints in some other locasion. after all the main point wasnt the luvly sales pitch of you have no choise so buy this, the whole point is about geting the plastik down right where it should be.

     

    tbh stepper accuracy on a cheepo set up can be down to 1/100'th of mm on a narmal 200x210x bed size(ish),and yes they can, mine does it..or did it before the replace the barings n smoothy board(the driver went and smoothy customs n exise say 'go away' in pritty english..) but...as the time goes on they start to run out, yet ageeeeen and ageeeen...into the perpetual get the print right, blasttt it! replace a part, reset up..print a bit then reset up then print a while longer then reset and recalibrate and sooooooooo on...drives yu up the wall doesnt it.

    he maintanence to the nozzle end in particular will always be there be it a 5 quid set up or the rebranded and finished properly 60 quid a rip off...plastik sticks and burns dunt it lol..(polish the 5 quid turds they work fine).

     

    the main catagries or 'traps' people fall into are things like the 'hobby of printing' entails build a machine and finaly get it running.. or...some one who wants a machine to print parts with a use, Funily enough if you want it to work boy do they add on the bucks big style, yawn. (the hobby goes are 'expected' to shell out money based on an anual estimasion of hobby exspendature..i.e. yu 'spend' is the hobby, or at least by the time the vendor desides on your behalf what you'd exspect to pay..endlesly lol.

     

    half the 'new' products and kickstarts with their honest to god impaired geniuos aproach (in american thats 'and god bless america with the gods honest truth) are literaly chinese already in the general market goods abroad that get renamed with a good old brittish badge....and those nasty old chinese just copied it before they could get it on the go! lol...blah blah blah...

    basicaly the market is indeedly closed up tight, you buy this this n this then argue the toss with the trolls about it. or you go profesional and triple/quodrouple to just find out ahhh yes...BS all along wasnt it.

     

     

    ................if the steps produced or should i say pulses 'counted' were readily readable the whole proces of teeth pully's cogs and equasions would be obsolete...6000 pulses moves to x 500 clicks...measure it..lol same thing over and over again, it would be far easier/simpler to aproach the whole deal from this type of angle.. the info is in the existing program some where, it has to be to generate the pulse train per steps.. and then to base it on a pully ratio equasion to get the shape from the G-code file. somewhere it comands 'X' amount of steps..DISPLAY IT..dohhh. at 50 years old its looking horably like i'll have to become a programmer, just intime to be too blind to care if the prints are straight or pritty lol. eeeeee....

     

     

    45 quid per stepper motor only 'reflects' the 'hobby-ists' spending hobby. i.e. it's not the participating that counts, it's how you spend about it, and how much forum use you can dominate with your cash flow. 

     

     

    helmit on..table ducked under..but hey ho i'm dead any way lol.

     

     

    for 40 quid you get a picture printer scanner............with it all included, not only that its very old hat!!  so who's getting a milking?

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