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Ask an Expert Forum Noise simulation with SPICE
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  • simulation
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Noise simulation with SPICE

jc2048
jc2048 over 5 years ago

Does anyone have any experience of simulating noise performance with SPICE?

 

I'm playing around (in Tina-TI) with an old discrete audio preamp design that was originally intended for use with a pickup coil (moving-coil). If I ask for the input-referenced noise, it gives me this

 

image

 

That looks quite plausible, with the 1/f noise in place and a sensible level for the white noise (1 or 2 nV/rtHz - higher than a very good bipolar low-noise op-amp, but still quite respectable). One thing I'm unsure of is the low corner frequency. An OP27 would be around 2.5Hz, and that's very, very good, so a third of a Hertz looks too good to be true, although this design does use a medium-power transistor in a common-base arrangement at the input, which is obviously something the chip people can't do.

 

Would it be reasonable to expect transistors to have sensible noise figures in their models?

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 5 years ago +1 suggested
    Hi Jon, Interesting question, I don't know the answer, I've never looked closely at BJT SPICE files, and don't know if the models have stayed the same or have improved for newer devices. I came across…
  • michaelkellett
    michaelkellett over 5 years ago +1 verified
    If you have AOE (Art of Electronics) third edition there is a lot of good stuff about discrete device noise in there. If you plotted on a log scale I think the 1/f corner (3dB rise in noise) is nearer…
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  • shabaz
    0 shabaz over 5 years ago

    Hi Jon,

     

    Interesting question, I don't know the answer, I've never looked closely at BJT SPICE files, and don't know if the models have stayed the same or have improved for newer devices.

    I came across this file, maybe you have already seen it: http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~wilambm/pap/2011/K10147_C011.pdf

    It mentions on page 8 that the corner frequency can be as low as tenths of Hz.

    This thread seems useful:

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.electronics.cad/NMHuu4KdWUg

    And this SPICE document:

    https://class.ece.uw.edu/cadta/hspice/chapter_14.pdf

    on page 46 indicates the SPICE parameters related to noise (I'm thinking if the SPICE file is available, it could be checked to see if these parameters are present).

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  • jc2048
    0 jc2048 over 5 years ago in reply to shabaz

    Thanks Shabaz, some good, helpful material there. Back to school for me!

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  • jc2048
    0 jc2048 over 5 years ago in reply to shabaz

    Thanks Shabaz, some good, helpful material there. Back to school for me!

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