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Ask an Expert Forum Power amplifier using flyback converter
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  • Experimenting Challenges
  • EXPERIMENTING WITH FLYBACK TRANSFORMERS
  • flyback transformers
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Power amplifier using flyback converter

Maxbiggair
Maxbiggair over 1 year ago

 There is a kind of converter I need help on. It is a buck-boost converter but the inductor is replaced by a steel toroid core transformer with a core power of 2025W max, it has a primary input and two secondary output 250 turns 1:1:1 each. 

The transistor is changed to a MOSFET and is driven by a 555 timer pwm circuit. Powered by a 12V, 75AH Battery 

Flyback voltage is tapped out from the primary coil and the high current is tapped from the first secondary coil through the use of diode and capacitors. 

The high voltage and high current is combined and fed to the inverter converting it to 50Hz AC. The output of the inverter is connected to the first secondary coil. Which is the same coil that the high current capacitor is drawing current from.

The second secondary coil will be the output whereby a band pass filter will be used to extract the 50Hz frequency from the transformer.

The goal is to provide good efficiency while reducing the cost.

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  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair +2
    if not familiar with component symbols, please draw the components as they are physically connected and mark the toroid windings with colors to see which winding connects to what. i would again recommend…
  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair +2
    do you think we have time to try to decipher your drawing and engineer a solution for you for free? especially after that response? good luck in your endeavours!
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair +2
    That's very rude considering people are trying to help you. Your diagram doesn't use standard symbols, and it's impossible for anyone to get inside your mind to understand precisely what was meant by…
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  • dougw
    dougw over 1 year ago

    It sounds strange to me to connect the AC output to the input transformer. Could you post the schematic?

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  • Maxbiggair
    Maxbiggair over 1 year ago in reply to dougw

    Well am not good at schematics but I hope you understand this.  image

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  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    are you using a distributed air gap toroidal core? 

    aslo, the MOSFET placement isn't correct. I'll do a bit of self-promotion here with this guide of flyback converters which might help you /search?q=Experimenting%20with%20Flyback%20Transformers%20#serpauthor=438987&serpcategory=blog&serpgroup=445 

    that blog series covers everything you need to know to get a flyback converter up and running and is very beginner-friendly

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  • Maxbiggair
    Maxbiggair over 1 year ago in reply to Anthocyanina

    Am not good at schematics.

    But you should know that the PWM is connected to the gate 

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  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    yeah, that's not the problem, if you're using an N channel fet, you connect the positive of the DC source to the first pin of the transformer primary, and the other pin goes to drain, and you connect source to ground. the connection shown in your drawing doesn't seem to be doing that

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  • Maxbiggair
    Maxbiggair over 1 year ago in reply to Anthocyanina

    Let say am using a reference node 

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  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    if not familiar with component symbols, please draw the components as they are physically connected and mark the toroid windings with colors to see which winding connects to what. 

    i would again recommend you read the flyback blogs i shared. flyback converters are one of the simplest dc to dc converter topologies to learn, even if you only have a basic understanding of electronics.

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  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    if not familiar with component symbols, please draw the components as they are physically connected and mark the toroid windings with colors to see which winding connects to what. 

    i would again recommend you read the flyback blogs i shared. flyback converters are one of the simplest dc to dc converter topologies to learn, even if you only have a basic understanding of electronics.

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  • Maxbiggair
    Maxbiggair over 1 year ago in reply to Anthocyanina

    Do you think I have time 

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  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    do you think we have time to try to decipher your drawing and engineer a solution for you for free? especially after that response? good luck in your endeavours! Slight smile

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    That's very rude considering people are trying to help you.

    Your diagram doesn't use standard symbols, and it's impossible for anyone to get inside your mind to understand precisely what was meant by each part of your diagram.

    You would need to put into standard symbols that everyone can understand, or try the approach of sketching the actual connections, rather than that pseudo-"diagram" you have currently.

    It's like language; if you're speaking a different language, how can anyone help without it being translated? Your diagram needs to be translated, and there's no translator in the world that can do that if you're using your own unique terminology that is only known to you.

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  • Maxbiggair
    Maxbiggair over 1 year ago in reply to shabaz

    I can't do that now because of my battery situation. Sorry if you think am rude. And in my country electricity isn't that good in my area. At this time in our country we are in the night presently with no electricity.

    Maybe during the day I will try but it may look rough 

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  • colporteur
    colporteur over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    Your battery situation is limited. The resources in the E14 community are limited. Step back and think how can you best maximize both limited resources? 

    The community needs information (i.e. accurate).

    What are you trying to accomplish? Build a circuit? Repair a circuit? Reverse engineer a circuit?

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    Also, what loads is it intended for?

    Often the most efficient way might be different, because many appliances have inefficiencies too, when they have to step-down from AC back to a lower DC supply. It's getting possible to power a lot of equipment directly from DC, e.g. 24V, for instance,

    USB-C offers 100W or so to laptops to power directly, and USB-C can operate from a 12V or 24V source. Similarly, a lot of office lighting now works with DC (Power over Ethernet), so even if PoE is not used, there is still good precedent for operating room lighting at low voltage, even if there are two sets of lighting, one for when AC power is available.

    .You may find the options are very good for powering a lot of equipment from a DC source (one or more car batteries for 12, 24 or higher voltage), and save a lot of energy due to fewer conversions, leaving any conversion to AC for the remaining few devices.

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  • Maxbiggair
    Maxbiggair over 1 year ago in reply to shabaz

    Well I tried drawing but it was rough so I downloaded any simulator. Please am still sorry for the other time.

    I think you might understand it.

    And my current simulator doesn't has 2 output secondary coil, so I had to do some weird connection. But the result is the toroidal transformer. Have tried drawing current through the coils and the flyback voltage doesn't reach the required voltage. The output is not stable.

    This is what I need help on.

    Thanks in advance: 

    /resized-image/__size/1280x720/__key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/70/Screenshot_5F00_20240530_2D00_192313.png

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  • shabaz
    shabaz over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    I took a quick look, and couldn't figure out how this could work. You've got primary side on the left side it seems, but also connected that primary winding in parallel (through D1 to some H-bridge output from the right-side circuitry, while at the same time, the H-bridge input is also connected to the primary (through D2 and D1).

    I doubt that software will simulate this, you may have to just try your experiement for real if you're convinced it can be made to work and be more efficient (I'm not convinced). The links from  Anthocyanina are about the most straightforward explanation that exists on the Internet today. You can also look at my more cut-down explanation here: Fun with Flybacks: Building a 600V Supply which doesn't cover as much.

    You could start with a scaled-down experiment, building one part at a time, because the entire circuit as it is won't work, and then you'll have no idea what part is wrong, because all are connected together as mentioned earlier. By looking at those blogs, you can see a similar strategy; things were incrementally built and tested. So, for any success, you'd have to build and test bit-by-bit. If the scaled-down circuit doesn't work, then you know that the larger circuit will not work. You will definitely need an oscilloscope if you have not already got one; it will be extremely difficult to experiment without one.

    Instead of a large toroidal transformer, you can buy a small, cheap multi-winding 1:1 ratio transformer, see "Hexa-Path" transformers, for instance, and use as many windings from there as you need. Such a scaled-down experiment would need to be done at a higher frequency than 50/60Hz, perhaps 20 kHz or more.

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  • Maxbiggair
    Maxbiggair over 1 year ago in reply to shabaz

    I wanted to use a large Toroidal transformer for high inductance and high fly back voltage.

    But thanks Thumbsup for everything and I will try doing bit by bit. And you are right, I don't have an oscilloscope, making it hard for me to try it 

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  • Anthocyanina
    Anthocyanina over 1 year ago in reply to Maxbiggair

    if you don't have access to an oscilloscope, simulations are your friend. with simulations and a multimeter you could still get a good idea of what the circuit is doing. as shabaz said, the circuit as you drew it will not work. 

    first, the MOSFET placement is wrong. To operate the MOSFET, you need to apply a voltage to the gate, referenced to the source. In your drawing the source isn't at ground potential so the voltage you are applying to the gate is not the Vgs the MOSFET will see. 

    second, the diode D1 will always discharge the capacitors through the winding of the transformer tied to its cathode, if the capacitors are ever charged at all, as the circuit will close to ground through what you labelled "M1".

    third, what you labelled as output will not be a DC output, and ignoring everything else, if this was a working flyback converter, if you were to conenct a load to what you labelled as output, it will result in immediate energy transfer as there isn't anything (a diode) blocking the current path during the on portion of the cycle, so the circuit wouldn't be operating as a flyback at all and energy transfer would be incredibly inefficient to the load connected to "output".

    i would recommend you first read on how to get a single output flyback converter running, then some reading on the working principle of the H bridge, and then build a simple flyback converter to explore how it works, then try to tie both sections together. 

    again, if you don't have access to an oscilloscope, simulations are a great aid, and if you have a multimeter, that together with the simulations should be enough to get your flyback up and running, maybe not ideally, but still can get you a working converter.

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