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Forum Are there any adverse effects from isolating the AC power supply on my electronics bench?
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  • modification
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Related

Are there any adverse effects from isolating the AC power supply on my electronics bench?

4ringfan
4ringfan over 10 years ago

jw0752 happened to show me an Ebay listing the other day and it was like feeding candy to a baby.  My dad, he can be such an enabler!  Hehe!  So, the long and short of it is that I have acquired this BEAST (a Powervar 12 Power conditioner) and I am planning to modify it so that I can isolate and supply power to my entire bench.  The Powervac 12 is capable of supplying 12Amps at 120VAC, so the only thing I was thinking that I needed to be concerned with was possibly exceeding the supply capabilities of the transformer -- however I find the possibility of drawing that much power quite remote. So...


Here are my primary questions:


  1. Is there any reason or side effect that would contradict hooking the entire bench on the isolated secondary side of a transformer?
  2. Are there other things that I should be concerned with safety wise or otherwise plan for?
  3. Modification suggestions?
  4. In general, is this a good or bad idea?


I haven't found too many articles that talk about this, but here are links to a few that I have looked at:


isolation transformer - Electronics Forums


RadiolaGuy.com : Sonny's Tech Tips


http://www.signaltransformer.com/sites/all/pdf/IsolationTransformers%20Increase%20Safety%20of%20Electronic%20Systems.pdf


isolation - Why are we not always isolating the mains supply? - Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange


I have read the following and I take it that I should not connect any of my test equipment to the isolation, only projects that I am working on. What about power supplies?  What is the take on this?:

 

"DO NOT plug your test equipment into the isolation transformer, just the radio. I've seen folks wire their isolation transformer to a plug strip with all their equipment plugged into it and wonder why their "scope's" ground lead went up in smoke when they connected it to the radio chassis. If all your equipment is plugged into the isolation transformer, then nothing is "isolated"! Only the radio (or television) under test should be plugged into the isolation transformer!"


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  • mcb1
    mcb1 over 10 years ago in reply to 4ringfan +3 suggested
    4ringfan I'm guessing you don't want to listen to your father's advise ... I'm sure he has been able to offer some good advise. Isolating transformers are really only designed to work with double insulated…
  • mcb1
    mcb1 over 10 years ago in reply to 4ringfan +2
    4ringfan Mike Let him buy a motorcycle .. he will anyway. While we don't have the same weather problems, I brought one just after I got my licence. In those days you weren't restricted to 250cc so I brought…
  • mcb1
    mcb1 over 10 years ago in reply to peterjcs23 +2
    @peterjcs23 I'm not sure I would agree with all your conclusions. While I'm sure the corporate world may place some other restrictions, this discussion is about what those 'unseen' risks might be, and…
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  • peterjcs23
    0 peterjcs23 over 10 years ago

    Hi Mike, why do you want to do this? Mains powered equipment needs an earth for safety and emc filters. Portable equipment Safety Transformers generally have a centre taped "isolated" secondary (i.e. not an auto-transformer) but the centre tap is earthed...Peter

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  • mcb1
    0 mcb1 over 10 years ago in reply to peterjcs23

    Portable equipment Safety Transformers generally have a centre taped "isolated" secondary (i.e. not an auto-transformer) but the centre tap is earthed...Peter

    Not sure I agree with that.

    The whole idea is to isolate it, so sticking an earth and making both phase and neutral at 57v wrt earth, doesn't seem right to me.

     

    http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/17496/how-is-using-a-transformer-for-isolation-safer-than-directly-connecting-to-the-p

    It is interesting in this discussion about a SINGLE PIECE of equipment on a transformer....

     

    Mark

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  • peterjcs23
    0 peterjcs23 over 10 years ago in reply to mcb1

    There is a range of products based on the principle...

     

    http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/safety-site-transformers/2604288/

     

    Peter

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  • michaelkellett
    0 michaelkellett over 10 years ago in reply to mcb1

    I've never used isolating transformers and in general I think I would rather rely on an RCD for basic protection.

     

    I also try to avoid servicing old stuff but when I have to I check the basic mains connections (especially earth) first. My Dad taught me to keep one hand in my pocket while working with high voltage stuff - I still do if I'm connecting a meter probe to alive terminal.

     

    I think the question of things interacting with the isolation transformer is interesting and I can imagine situations where it would be a problem.

     

    I'm totally in agreement re. floating instrument earths - don't do it ever. I often isolate the DUT by running it from a battery or an isolated DC supply so I can't see that using an isolating transformer is much different in principle but I would do it on a case by case basis.

     

    If I did a lot of high voltage work I would buy a set of high voltage diff probes for the scope or consider an isolated scope (but they tend to be rather pricey and  a bit low spec).

     

    MK

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  • michaelkellett
    0 michaelkellett over 10 years ago in reply to mcb1

    I've never used isolating transformers and in general I think I would rather rely on an RCD for basic protection.

     

    I also try to avoid servicing old stuff but when I have to I check the basic mains connections (especially earth) first. My Dad taught me to keep one hand in my pocket while working with high voltage stuff - I still do if I'm connecting a meter probe to alive terminal.

     

    I think the question of things interacting with the isolation transformer is interesting and I can imagine situations where it would be a problem.

     

    I'm totally in agreement re. floating instrument earths - don't do it ever. I often isolate the DUT by running it from a battery or an isolated DC supply so I can't see that using an isolating transformer is much different in principle but I would do it on a case by case basis.

     

    If I did a lot of high voltage work I would buy a set of high voltage diff probes for the scope or consider an isolated scope (but they tend to be rather pricey and  a bit low spec).

     

    MK

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  • peterjcs23
    0 peterjcs23 over 10 years ago in reply to michaelkellett

    Yes, people often buy Rigol scopes for use at home, they sell a massive range of accessories including high voltage probes...

     

    You can read more about the RP1000D series on the accessories page here:

    http://www.rigol.eu/products/accessories/

     

    Keep one hand in your pocket, wear rubber boots! Good advice.

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  • 4ringfan
    0 4ringfan over 10 years ago in reply to michaelkellett

    My Dad taught me to keep one hand in my pocket while working with high voltage stuff - I still do if I'm connecting a meter probe to alive terminal.

    michaelkellett,

     

    I "play with fire" with one hand as well.  Hehe, Fire! Fire! Fire!  Seriously, though, I have to work on many pieces of equipment that are live and I force myself to work with my right hand as much as humanly possible.  It is a good practice.  If the second, left hand, does come into play, I make sure it is well insulated and kept well out of the "fray".  I've received enough shock treatment in my lifetime to know that I do not like it.  In fact, I actually survived a lightning strike before!  It was the worst pain I have ever experienced in my entire life. I don't recommend it.

    image

    My quick test block consists of a line cord, a GFI, a fuse block and wire nuts -- it is a poor man's quick test block I guess.

     

    I want to thank all of  you guys, mcb1 , peterjcs23, and Michael for your input.  I guess I've learned a thing or two, but I've got two more questions and one additional side comment for Mark though.

     

    1. Would transient MOVs be of any practical use on the secondary of an isolation circuit?  Something to tamp down any voltage spikes across the two secondary legs that may or may not be caused by a collapsing magnetic field?
    2. Who deserves the helpful answers and who deserves the solution? Hehe, I'm torn.

     

    Mark, about letting my son get a motorcycle.  I almost lost my son to a horrible car accident in his sophomore year of high school.  My daughter was driving and he was the passenger.  There was a man that had a heart attack, the man collapsed on his wheel and crossed the centerline and went head on with my kids at about 130MPH closure.  My son is a senior and he will turn 18 this June.  I have told him to look into training classes that are offered at the tech school here to see if he actually even likes motorcycles.  They have a weekend course where they teach safety and supply the motorcycles and equipment.  I'm willing to go that far.  I also told him that I would not finance any of this endeavor, and that he would have to wait until he was at least 18 to get one.  It will have to be HIS decision, NOT MINE.  I've driven almost 2 million miles for my job and I have seen a lot of terrible stuff, so I just don't want my kid on a bike I guess.

     

    image

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  • mcb1
    0 mcb1 over 10 years ago in reply to 4ringfan

    Mike

    You should not need MOV's since its the same problem when you switch off the mains on the appliance ... the energy has nowhere to go.

     

    Placed across the secondary terminals, they wouldn't cause any additional issues, so maybe you could include them in a box with the big red disconnect switch.

    Just do helpful as there is no real correct answer.

     

     

    Accident

    That is a serious accident and thankfully the outcome wasn't different.

    I'm glad it had modern safety equipment, and that is something I made sure of for our kids ... at least they have the best chance if it happens.

     

    I know from many years of riding larger motorcycles you often avoided danger, whereas in a car you were a passenger waiting for the crunch.

    18 and the course is about all you can do ...good choice.

     

    Mark

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