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Member's Forum Does anyone know of a good circuit design to demonstrate echo on voice communications?
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Does anyone know of a good circuit design to demonstrate echo on voice communications?

rad_bcit
rad_bcit over 2 years ago

Many years ago, one of the things that attracted me into taking telecommunications training was a demo illustrating the effects of echo on a person’s ability to communicate over a telephone.

The user picked up a plain old telephone handset and attempted to speak and, as with most telephones, as portion of the voice signal from the transmitter/mouthpiece was echoed back as “sidetone” via the receiver/earpiece. At some settings of the device, I found it very difficult to speak because of the echo.

A snippet from https://getvoip.com/blog/phone-echoing/ (Rebecca Drew) explains the effect I experienced:

Echoing interferes with our understanding of another person’s voice in a phone call, and it confuses a person who is speaking because they hear themselves on the line. The problem is the delay between the spoken word in the outbound call stream and its reflection in the return stream. …

If the delay is less than 25 milliseconds, it’s almost undetectable. If the delay is around 55 milliseconds, the user experience is similar to having 2 people saying the same thing at the same time (a chorus-like effect). This level of echo or delay, though noticeable, is tolerable.

Once a delay increases beyond 55 milliseconds it becomes very annoying and distracting to users. At this point, it becomes nearly impossible to carry on a conversation. For a normal user, the echo of their own voice will essentially break down the call by interrupting their thought process.

My hope is that I can reproduce this fascinating demo for use in student recruiting events.

Does anyone have any ideas, circuit diagrams, or resources that would help me get this done?

I don’t have a large budget, but I have access to many tools and electronics components to get this done from scratch. However, I also think a black box modifying a prebuilt device such as a musician’s effects pedal such as the MXR Carbon Copy, would do the job, making more efficient use of the limited amount of time I have available.

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  • beacon_dave
    beacon_dave over 2 years ago +2
    You just need a microphone, an audio delay and some headphones. You can get the same effect with in ear monitors if the delay from your microphone through the mixer back to the in ear monitors goes beyond…
  • rad_bcit
    rad_bcit over 2 years ago in reply to beacon_dave +2
    Thanks for the reply, beacon_dave. Your suggestion of video has given me another idea. Perhaps I could show the same video image on multiple systems, each displaying a different amount of pixelation…
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 2 years ago in reply to rad_bcit +2
    Great! If you get stuck feel free to ask, I'm sure eventually one of us will figure it out. It's definitely an interesting topic. I recall talking to an ex audio-engineer once, he mentioned that in…
  • beacon_dave
    0 beacon_dave over 2 years ago in reply to shabaz
    shabaz said:
    sound studios would simply cut tape to make their echos and other effects

    Yes, reel to reel tape decks would be used either with tape loops or a tape spanning two decks to add delay.  I think there are some examples on the BBC Radiophonic Workshop archives.

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  • beacon_dave
    0 beacon_dave over 2 years ago in reply to beacon_dave

    1965: How DELIA DERBYSHIRE made the DOCTOR WHO theme I Tomorrow's World I Music I BBC Archive

    https://youtu.be/qsRuhCflRyg?t=175

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  • shabaz
    0 shabaz over 2 years ago in reply to beacon_dave

    That's awesome! 

    Pity it may likely be blocked from non-UK audiences, but it was fascinating to watch. 

    For anyone curious that cannot watch it, it shows banks of reel-to-reel decks, all playing loops of tapes in synchronization:

    image

    It sounds just like the music in 1960s TV series' : )

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  • beacon_dave
    0 beacon_dave over 2 years ago in reply to shabaz

    There is some more 60s stuff in the archives here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/electronic-music/zk8gpg8

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  • bradfordmiller
    0 bradfordmiller over 2 years ago in reply to shabaz

    Very cool. Brings back memories of electronic music classes I took in the 70s. We also used springs for reverb and simple electronic circuits (e.g. ring modulators) to get interesting effects.

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  • rad_bcit
    0 rad_bcit over 2 years ago in reply to dougw

    That's an interesting idea, dougw. Although I'm not very skilled in using it, I've had Audacity on my computer for years. I wasn't aware that they added realtime effects in 2022: https://www.makeuseof.com/realtime-effects-audacity-how-to-find-use/

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  • rad_bcit
    0 rad_bcit over 2 years ago in reply to rad_bcit

    This will have to wait until I switch myself over to a newer computer. My current machine, which I've been reluctant to give up on since I know it so well, isn't capable of running the most recent plugins. I tried to run the Muse Hub plugin, which has delay and other effects, but it gives an OS version error.

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  • rad_bcit
    0 rad_bcit over 2 years ago in reply to bradfordmiller

    This is super-cool! It plays for me in Canada. I sent it off to a friend who mixes music on a high-end Mac. Mixing electronic music was certainly a lot more hardware-intensive back in the 60's.

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  • Derek (DCtoDaylight)
    0 Derek (DCtoDaylight) over 2 years ago

    As beacon_dave and robogary mention, bucket brigade would be a great way to go, though as you said below it is somewhat digital.. though much of the technology inside is gloriously analog!

    Tape delay would be the closest to full electronic/analog solution and an interesting visual.

    For the POTS ringy-dingy, I made a thing that may be of interest: https://youtu.be/BGbmFF56iH8 Maybe you can tap off the line and put the signal through the PT2399 and control the delay with a potentiometer. Not fully analog, but...

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  • shabaz
    0 shabaz over 2 years ago

    Another nice demo of communications delay is to do it for real, simply throwing the data halfway around the world. We did that for a work demo once. Someone created an Amazon compute instance using the India region, and we wrote code on a Raspberry Pi to accept user input (it could be buttons), and send them to India : ) 

    The code running on the India compute instance merely sent back what it received automatically. Once the Pi received it from India, it controlled some servo motors. Its really quite disconcerting attempting to control something with that much latency, and it varies because some of the messages get bottled up or arrive closely together or far apart. 

    Then it's easy to contrast that with lower delay by directing to a more local compute instance.

    It could be done with audio, but may need a coder unless something like VLC or a SIP client can do loopback. But it was quite fun just to do it with control of servos. We used it to control a cheap toy robot arm. It's like trying to control a limb but never knowing quite when it will react and by how much, rendering it extremely difficult to use it to perform simple tasks.

    There was method to the madness; we were using it to demonstrate a system that would automatically move code execution to close to the user,  regardless of where in the world they were.

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