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Related

Google Go on ARM

morgaine
morgaine over 12 years ago

Ealier today, selsinork wrote in another thread (new one here owing to my change of topic):

selsinork wrote:

 

Interestingly,  it's not so long ago that x86 systems were far less capable in terms of  memory, storage and likely CPU than today's ARM systems, yet were  perfectly capable of compiling everything required natively. How quickly  we forget, and how quickly we bloat the software with unnecessary junk  to the point this is no longer true.

That is so very true!!!

 

Software technology needs occasional revolutions too, just like society, to remove layers of accreted crud.  This happens so rarely in computing alas that we're up to our eyeballs in it and barely keeping our heads clear.  It is so rare that I'd like to highlight one relatively recent instance of it, although it is admittedly a revolution with a small 'r'  as it hasn't captured much mindshare in the computing industry.  It's the programming language Google Go.

 

It's not the Go language syntax nor semantics that are revolutionary,  although it is nice enough in both respects and has lots of very effective features especially for concurrent programming.  What is revolutionary about it is its implementation meme, which renouces the idea that building software is divorced from language definition and is performed by third party tools ("make" and its many equivalents in the commandline and IDE worlds) with limited knowledge of the language beyond syntax.  That almost universally prevalent idea has slowed down system building to a crawl right across the world of computing, and it's almost single-handedly reponsible for the problem you described.  (I'm referring to build time only here.)

 

Instead, Go provides integrated build tools and a software construction meme in which to compile a module requires looking only at its immediate dependencies, no further.  In other words, if module A is dependent on B, and B is dependent on C, then to compile A does not require looking at C.  (No explosion of header file lookups.)  Extrapolate this to complex systems with many layers of dependency in breadth and in which each dependency is itself dependent on multiple layers of dependency in depth, and as you can imagine, Go application building can be literally orders of magnitude faster than in most of the languages in common use today.  Many compiles are pretty much instantaneous despite having lots of dependencies.

 

That's "revolutionary" of the kind that removes decades of accumulated crud which has slowed down our systems to a crawl.  It's worth spreading the word about it.  Oh, and it works on ARM, not as efficiently as on x86 yet but it's improving all the time.  I think we should be using Go very widely for as much as possible outside the kernel.

 

Just today on one of my BBB's with Debian installed:

debian@bbb:#  apt-get install golang

...

Need to get 21.9 MB of archives.
After this operation, 81.4 MB of additional disk space will be used.

...

debian@bbb:$  go version

go version go1.0.2

debian@bbb:$  vi hello.go

debian@bbb:$  cat hello.go

package main

 

import "fmt"

 

func main() {
        fmt.Println("Hello, World!")
}

debian@bbb:$  go build hello.go

debian@bbb:$  ./hello

Hello, World!

debian@bbb:$

Viva la revolucion!  image

 

More seriously, it still has a long way to go in a few areas (integration/interoperation is one), but I see very good things ahead for Go.  I recommend that engineers add it to their toolbox and gradually expand their use over time.  Expect huge reductions in crud / time gains on large projects.

 

 

Morgaine.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 12 years ago in reply to morgaine +1
    Morgaine Dinova wrote: The result isn't in dispute. Anyone can experience it for themselves The result is rarely in dispute. At least not by anyone willing to do some simple comparisons. History, however…
  • morgaine
    morgaine over 12 years ago in reply to Former Member +1
    selsinork wrote: History, however, is littered with cases of the inferior choice 'winning'. VHS vs Betamax ? RPi vs * ? Yeah, but fortunately we can leave the discussions about "winning" to the respective…
Parents
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 12 years ago

    Morgaine Dinova wrote:

     

    It's the programming language Google Go.

    Arguing the merits of particular languages is something I try to avoid, there's always a fanboy evangelist who thinks you should ditch everything for their latest favourite. I don't know go, so I won't try to judge it.

    What I see a lot though is that Go is just number 315 added to a list that used to be smaller. It's something that I need to be vaguely familiar with, at least enough to be able to fix something after Karl who evangelised it's use has left the company. I'll never be an expert in it as there's another 314 languages I need to keep up with as well.

     

    I do believe that if you give someone a strong grasp of the fundamental ideas behind how to write code then they'll be able to write useable code is just about any language given a syntax reference and standard library reference.

     

    Proliferation is the problem. I can't possibly keep all the details of all the languages in my head, so I'm doomed to be generally ok with lots of them and as such to write far less effective and far less elegant code in lots of languages instead of being able to become really proficient in just a few.  I also find myself regularly typing some amalgamation of three or four different ones and wondering why it's not working.

    None of this helps remove those layers of crud you talk about, in fact it could very well be a significant cause of it.

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  • morgaine
    morgaine over 12 years ago in reply to Former Member

    selsinork wrote:

     

    Arguing the merits of particular languages is something I try to avoid.

    My post was not about the language Go itself --- all I said about the language was that it is "nice enough" and "effective".  I tend to regard details of language syntax as decorative and semantics as all largely the same, at least among imperative languages.  In that sense Go is no different to C or Java or a thousand other languages of this family.

     

    What I've been describing here instead is how the Go implementation manages the dependencies between modules, and how its build tool capitalizes on that.  In many ways it's "just an implementation detail", but it's a crucial one if we don't want our development cycle to slow to a crawl.  As you wrote yourself, "we bloat the software with unnecessary junk".  Occasionally we need a purge.

     

    What I see a lot though is that Go is just number 315 added to a list that used to be smaller.

    BBB was board #731 added to a list that used to be smaller.  That doesn't mean that we should have ignored it.  image

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  • morgaine
    morgaine over 12 years ago in reply to Former Member

    selsinork wrote:

     

    Arguing the merits of particular languages is something I try to avoid.

    My post was not about the language Go itself --- all I said about the language was that it is "nice enough" and "effective".  I tend to regard details of language syntax as decorative and semantics as all largely the same, at least among imperative languages.  In that sense Go is no different to C or Java or a thousand other languages of this family.

     

    What I've been describing here instead is how the Go implementation manages the dependencies between modules, and how its build tool capitalizes on that.  In many ways it's "just an implementation detail", but it's a crucial one if we don't want our development cycle to slow to a crawl.  As you wrote yourself, "we bloat the software with unnecessary junk".  Occasionally we need a purge.

     

    What I see a lot though is that Go is just number 315 added to a list that used to be smaller.

    BBB was board #731 added to a list that used to be smaller.  That doesn't mean that we should have ignored it.  image

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 12 years ago in reply to morgaine
    What I've been describing instead here is how the Go implementation manages the dependencies between modules, and how its build tool capitalizes on that.

     

    I think that's a fair point.  But you have to take into account the effect of multi-core machines.

    If module A depends on C, and module B depends on C, and you change C, you might like

    to be able to compile A and B in parallel without first recompiling C.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 12 years ago in reply to morgaine

    BBB was board #731 added to a list that used to be smaller.  That doesn't mean that we should have ignored it.  image

    But what can we say scientifically about it?

     

    We can say its ethernet isn't built on top of usb, but do we have experiments to show

    that ethernet speed is unaffected by usb traffic?

     

    Can we say that BBB doesn't have any of the types of USB and SD card problems

    that have plagued RPi?  Do we know anything about the USB hardware and/or driver?

     

    E14 sells both, but they apparently don't have any sort of side-by-side comparison

    beyond what connectors and such are provided.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 12 years ago in reply to morgaine

    Morgaine Dinova wrote:

     

    My post was not about the language Go itself

    I understand that, my point was that it's simply 'yet another language' I need to learn about. The merits of any particular one, or their supporting systems and compilers are largely irrelevant when I simply don't have the capability to keep all the details of all of them in my head at once.  You've made similar observations in other discussions, it's the limitations of us humans to keep a handle on all the details that's a big part of the problem.

     

    BBB was board #731 added to a list that used to be smaller.  That doesn't mean that we should have ignored it.  image

    Not saying we should ignore Go either. but that's part of the problem, which ones to pick ?   RPi is highly popular but has a ton of issues leading various of us to write it off for anything serious, should we ditch python because it's popular like the Pi image

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  • johnbeetem
    johnbeetem over 12 years ago in reply to Former Member

    selsinork wrote:

     

    I understand that, my point was that it's simply 'yet another language' I need to learn about. The merits of any particular one, or their supporting systems and compilers are largely irrelevant when I simply don't have the capability to keep all the details of all of them in my head at once.

    I used to collect programming language knowledge.  My opinion is that once you've learned enough  languages, you really don't need to know "all the details" of any of them except for the few you use on a day-to-day basis.  The others are usually just combinations of the various features of other languages, often adding an elegant construct, and occasionally adding interesting semantics.  You can look up the details when needed.  I think LISP and Haskell and Icon and SNOBOL have some wonderful features, but they're really not well suited to the kind of programming I do these days which follows C semantics.  I've read a bit about Python and I've seen examples of Python code, and from what I can tell it's a nice follow-on to SETL and has nifty generators like Icon and Smalltalk.  Well, that's "groovy" and I'm glad people are having fun programming, but the C semantics work fine for me.

     

    I always encourage design of new programming languages.  I think we're far from getting it right, and different programming languages are suited to different sorts of problems, just like some human languages are better suited to poetry while others are better suited to profanity or giving orders.  I personally find French to be the best language for expressing exasperation, and often use it when driving: Qu'est-ce q'il fabrique là?  Est-ce pour aujourd'*** ou pour demain?  When I took my data structures course, I had a choice of programming languages: Fortran IV, Algol (no recursion allowed), or MIX assembly language.  I'd sure hate to be stuck with those choices today.

     

    I do most of my programming in GalaxC.  Very flexible use of syntax with C semantics.  Works for me, but it will be a long time before you'll need to know anything about it for your job, so no need to add it to your list. image

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 12 years ago in reply to johnbeetem

    Fortran IV, Algol (no recursion allowed), or MIX assembly language.  I'd sure hate to be stuck with those choices today.

     

    yeah, today you get Fortran 2008, MMIX, and all the recursion you want.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 12 years ago in reply to johnbeetem

    John Beetem wrote:

     

    I used to collect programming language knowledge.  My opinion is that once you've learned enough  languages, you really don't need to know "all the details" of any of them except for the few you use on a day-to-day basis.

    Yep, and that's part of my point, with a good grasp of the 'how' the rest is just semantics. To a certain degree you can look up syntax and stuff, but to some extent or another I find myself thinking 'Oh yeah, they called that function something stupid in this language didn't they' when you can't find the thing you're looking for under anything obvious.  It's stuff like that wasting time that I don't like.

     

    I always encourage design of new programming languages.  I think we're far from getting it right, and different programming languages are suited to different sorts of problems,

    Oh, I agree that we're far from getting it right, but in the meantime we have to deal with the consequences of the mess we're left with.  Not entirely sure I agree that different languages are better suited to different problems and that comes down to them all being general enough to be useful, otherwise they're not popular enough to be known about., and a 'for' loop almost always works  exactly the same - if you can remember whether it's curly brackets, round ones or square ones and what order the params go in etc..

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  • johnbeetem
    johnbeetem over 12 years ago in reply to Former Member

    selsinork wrote:

     

    ... Not entirely sure I agree that different languages are better suited to different problems and that comes down to them all being general enough to be useful, otherwise they're not popular enough to be known about...

    I think a language becomes popular largely because it has a "killer application" or a fierce evangelist (or dictator) in the right environment.  For example, C spread quickly thanks to Unix in spite of Pascal being a more friendly language, and Java spread quickly since it allowed Internet applications to run on so many platforms.  According to my understanding of Wikipedia, Objective-C was nurtured by Steve Jobs at NeXT and he brought it back to Apple with him, where I believe it's the only allowed language for iPhone applications.  I haven't heard of its being used outside of Apple applications, but this could be because I'm not listening at the right places.  I don't know anything about Objective-C other than what's at Wikipedia, so feel free to correct and/or elaborate.

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