CadSoft forums now available on element14

Matt Collinge wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 13:46

Christy Zurcher - element14 Manager

Will you guys please stop doing this!?

Are logins really in such short supply at Farnell that each of you can't

have one, or are you too lazy to log in properly and "Matt Collinge" is

some sort of catch all acount?

This may work for you folks, but it's rather annoying for the rest of the

world.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Hi Olin,

I'm not sure to what you are referring. I don't see any of my posts as coming through from Matt. When I look at the newsgroups using Outlook Express I see everything as "Christy Zurcher wrote:"...etc.

We are not using a shared login - our gateway should be passing through our names using our IDs from element14, just as it does in reverse, passing through your details to element14 when you post to the forums.

Is there a particular post where you are seeing this so I can investigate?

As mentioned, I use Outlook Express to view the newsgroups and  messages posted out from element14 appear to have a proper line-length when I view them there.

We want to make sure this works well for you guys who use the forums, so anything I can do to make the experience better/investigate/fix on our end I will surely try to do.

Thanks,

Christy

Christy Zurcher schrieb:

I'm not sure to what you are referring. I don't see any of my posts

as coming through from Matt. When I look at the newsgroups using

Outlook Express I see everything as "Christy Zurcher wrote:"...etc.

Don't worry - Olin is posting through yet another newsgroup-to-web

interface which has a few flaws. One of those is the (wrong)

interpretation of mail adresses and assigning them to more or less

correct "user names" - and then displaying only these names without the

mail address, ignoring the provided user name of the sender.

There's nothing you can do about this from your side. This needs to be

fixed at the other side. Your posts are perfectly fine (besides the line

length... ).

Is there a particular post where you are seeing this so I can

investigate?

<http://www.eaglecentral.ca/forums/index.php?t=msg&th=38123&start=0&S=5ccfa201173f2824731980c511a9ef15>

That's how it appears there - but remember, that's a fault of their

interface software, not yours.

As mentioned, I use Outlook Express to view the newsgroups and

messages posted out from element14 appear to have a proper

line-length when I view them there.

Maybe your OE automatically wraps the lines when viewing, or your window

width is rather small so the lines appear shorter than they are. In

fact, all your paragraphs are posted as a single line.

We want to make sure this works well for you guys who use the forums,

so anything I can do to make the experience better/investigate/fix on

our end I will surely try to do.

Thanks for all of your support, especially concerning the continuity of

the newsgroups. (But, however, don't confuse them with "forums"... )

Tilmann

Oliver Betz wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 14:29

Since we already discussed this topic, you know why I disagree -

efficiency. I need to take part in dozens of newsgroups and mailing

lists, never could do so with forums because it took way too long.

 

I also need have to visit several forums on a regular basis and it's

so much slower and annoying that I hardly participate to help other

people but only look for the information I need.

 

And there are so many different user interfaces. Each forum software

works differently. My news and mail client is always the same.

I don't see how what I suggested (forum based with NNTP and SMTP feeds)

works against that.

If you're on a dozen lists and forums you need to get a life

Besides that though, I wouldn't want to actively go to a dozen forums to

check what's going on either.  This is where I find email notification very

useful.  I get the email from everything I participate in in one place.

Each message tells me enough what it's about so that I can decide to click

thru the link to that specific message and read more and maybe reply.

It would be nice if all the forum editors were standardized, as long as

they pick the right standard, of course

Most of the are similar enough, with Element14 being the main exception.  I

still prefer writing a message in a forum than with a email or news gateway

because of the richer formatting which allows you create a neater looking

message with inline embedded pictures, formatting, list structure, and the

like.

If someone just wants to type mail, then it should be possible to map that

into the forum in a reasonable way although there will be some loss of

features.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Oliver Betz wrote to us saying :

>Olin Lathrop wrote:

>

>[...]

>

>>I think the forums should be the main interface, with email or NNTP feeds

>>for people that want that.  That allows for full features available via the

>

>Since we already discussed this topic, you know why I disagree -

>efficiency. I need to take part in dozens of newsgroups and mailing

>lists, never could do so with forums because it took way too long.

Just in case anybody is labouring under the misapprehension that Olin

speaks for the majority, I will state my whole-hearted agreement with

Oliver (and to an extent with Tilmann) on this subject.

The web is great for pretty stuff, Googling, and reference material. But

for discussion, whether technical or otherwise, web forums universally

suck, and mailing lists or NNTP feeds work really well.

--

Rob Pearce                       http://www.bdt-home.demon.co.uk

The contents of this | Windows NT crashed.

message are purely   | I am the Blue Screen of Death.

my opinion. Don't    | No one hears your screams.

believe a word.      |

Olin Lathrop wrote:

>Oliver Betz wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 09:39

>Quote:

>> The right way might be not to use a forum software but a good online

>> news reader to access the Cadsoft newsgroups.

>

>Now you're starting to sound like Tilmann trying to tell everyone what they

>should do instead of making the system work for how people actually use it.

and you are not telling people what they should do?

--

Lorenz

Olin Lathrop wrote:

>I think the forums should be the main interface, with email or NNTP feeds

>for people that want that.  That allows for full features available via the

Since we already discussed this topic, you know why I disagree -

efficiency. I need to take part in dozens of newsgroups and mailing

lists, never could do so with forums because it took way too long.

I also need have to visit several forums on a regular basis and it's

so much slower and annoying that I hardly participate to help other

people but only look for the information I need.

And there are so many different user interfaces. Each forum software

works differently. My news and mail client is always the same.

Oliver

Oliver Betz wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 09:39

I also prefer NNTP but did I ever insult you for prefering forum style

access?

You haven't, but I wasn't referring to you.  Tilmann often posts things

that imply anyone using the forums is stupid and that they shouldn't exist.

He definitely has a "attitude" in that regard, and yes, I think he

deliberately tries to be a just a little insulting to the forum users.

Quote:

So you say because people access the newsgroups via forums, the NNTP

users should suffer from it?

I think the forums should be the main interface, with email or NNTP feeds

for people that want that.  That allows for full features available via the

forum interface.  With the right gateway to/from SMTP or NNTP those users

should see little difference.

For example, forums can give you things like inline italics, bold,

clickable links without the URL showing, flowed text to the user's window,

a clear display of quoted text that can't be confused regardless of how

much some dumb poster messes it up, etc.  Most of these can be mapped or

silently dropped to email.  Flowed text can be wrapped at 72 columns.  Some

things can be reversed, like lines with leading ">" considered quoted.

The situation now where NNTP is the "official" means and the forums just a

window onto that precludes some of the nicer features and causes more

conversion troubles.

Quote:

The right way might be not to use a forum software but a good online

news reader to access the Cadsoft newsgroups.

Now you're starting to sound like Tilmann trying to tell everyone what they

should do instead of making the system work for how people actually use it.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

"Morten Leikvoll" wrote:

>Last, a Q:

>Is there a need for eaglecentral now that element14 is online?

IMO element14 is even worse than eaglecentral as an access method to

the Eagle groups.

Oliver

Olin Lathrop wrote:

>Tilmann is well known for being a newsfeed bigot.  He's actually got some

I also prefer NNTP but did I ever insult you for prefering forum style

access? Stay polite.

>valid points, but doesn't want to admit to the reality that lots of folks

>are using these services only via the forums.

So you say because people access the newsgroups via forums, the NNTP

users should suffer from it?

The right way might be not to use a forum software but a good online

news reader to access the Cadsoft newsgroups.

Oliver

"Olin Lathrop" <eagle@embedinc.com> wrote in message

news:i08lg4$m68$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

Tilmann Reh wrote on Fri, 25 June 2010 10:06

>> There's nothing you can do about this from your side.

>

Yes there is.  Make sure every user has a unique FROM: address.

You can not guarantee the uniqueness of the FROM field. Many people use an

invalid from field to keep spam away and the nntp servers doesn't mind. The

username is a better key to the user, although not secure.

Quote:

>> Your posts are perfectly fine (besides the line

>> length... ).

>

That depends on how you view them.  In a forum, paragraphs sent as single

long lines look better since the software is free to flow the text

according to the display width.

Agree with you Olin. I much prefer the auto word wrap over fixed witdh, even

on nntp (using outlook express). I have a 2560x1600 screen and the width of

my windows may vary a lot.

Quoting is a problem in both cases.

-If a paragraph is broken and quoted, it needs to re-break, wich looks

funny.

-If a very long line is quoted and not broken up, the quoting symbols '>'

will just appear once on a wrapped line. Unfortunately the nntp raw text

handling does not have support for this issue. Raw http forums can do it

slightly better.

Last, a Q:

Is there a need for eaglecentral now that element14 is online?

Tilmann Reh wrote on Fri, 25 June 2010 10:06

There's nothing you can do about this from your side.

Yes there is.  Make sure every user has a unique FROM: address.

Quote:

Your posts are perfectly fine (besides the line

length... ).

That depends on how you view them.  In a forum, paragraphs sent as single

long lines look better since the software is free to flow the text

according to the display width.

My quote of your sentence above is a great example.  I noticed when

previewing my message that your sentence gets broken up at the point you

put a end of line in, as apposed to getting wrapped to look more neat.

Sometimes I fix these things manually, but I'm leaving it there this time

to show the point.

Quote:

But, however, don't confuse them with "forums"...

But that's exactly the issue.  There are at least two forums now displaying

these messages.  The problem is that the underlying mechanism is a news

feed instead of being a real forum.  This means there is a lot of

restriction on formatting, and the people viewing it with a bare news

reader see things differently.

Tilmann is well known for being a newsfeed bigot.  He's actually got some

valid points, but doesn't want to admit to the reality that lots of folks

are using these services only via the forums.

On the other hand, last time I checked out Element14 the forum software was

awful to the point of being too painful to use.  That was a bunch of months

ago.  I thought E14 was a nice idea, but too much of a mess at the time.

Has anything changed substantially so that it's worth taking another look?

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Hi Rob,

Thanks. The gateway on our side asks for a default email address which is the communitymanager one, but is supposed to do email matching on the user's and use that when there is one. I'll see what our options are to change that.

Sincerely,

Christy

Hi Rob,

Thanks. The gateway on our side asks for a default email address which is the communitymanager one, but is supposed to do email matching on the user's and use that when there is one. I'll see what our options are to change that.

Sincerely,

Christy