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Oliver Betz wrote on Tue, 13 July 2010 11:08

I'm afraid that gateways will always be a source of trouble -

especially if they don't use the least common denominator but want to

add formatting options.

No, this makes no sense.  Seriously, think about it.  You want to store it

with the most information preserved so that it can be converted best to

whatever a specific request wants.  If stored in the least common

demominator, information is irreversibly lost.  That prevents good

conversion back to other forms that can express this information.  Or put

another way, this dumbs down everthing else to the level of NNTP (since

that's the least common denominator), thereby decreasing the usefulness of

everything else.

Since such a system can produce a copy of a message nicely compatible with

NNTP usage whenever needed, I really don't see the objection.  Several

folks have objected to this, but none have provided any real reason that

can be discussed on technical merits.

To make a analogy, suppose you were part of a group working with raw PC

boards, and use gerber files to manipulate these boards and describe them.

Others design the circuits these boards implement, and they communicate

with Eagle schematic and board files.  It wouldn't make sense to only allow

these others to communicate with gerber files because information would be

lost.  You may only care about the gerber files, but as long as they can be

created on demand from the Eagle files, it shouldn't matter to you and the

others can communicate at a higher level.

This appears to be a emotional issue with the NNTP users somehow feeling

threatened by the existance of the forums, even though there would be no

loss of NNTP features.  In fact, some things get better for the NNTP users

as I described in a earlier post.  So far the only objections have been

that is "should be this way".  If someone has a real technical argument

against this, please let's hear it.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Klaus Schmidinger wrote:

>Anyway, as long as I have a say here, the CadSoft support groups' database

>will be the NNTP server on news.cadsoft.de. Web forums may interface to these

>groups and do their best to display the postings correctly and send their

>postings to the news server in a proper way. However, there is only one

>place that is the ultimate reference, and that's news.cadsoft.de.

since it seems to be sooo difficult for todays users to get a NNTP

client running, what about a web interface to news.cadsoft.de?

Oliver

"Morten Leikvoll" wrote:

>> Could you point out the benefit of your solution over web access to

>> the NNTP groups?

>

>That would leave Cadsoft alone with their NNTP interface, and give clear

>guidance (and point responsibility) to whoever wants to relay it.

I still don't see the benefit.

>And we will get rid of all this noise

>Cadsoft should not have to worry about these external relays. They need to

>focus on Eagle better and keep all maintenance costs low.

I'm afraid that gateways will always be a source of trouble -

especially if they don't use the least common denominator but want to

add formatting options.

Oliver

On 07/10/10 15:47, Olin Lathrop wrote:

...

The reason that the underlying mechanism has to be a forum, is that it can

store the most information.

It's probably a bad idea to stir up this thread again, but I just can't

leave this sentence uncommented.

If something is to be reasonably displayed on various systems (forums vs. news

groups), IMHO it makes the most sense to use the least common denominator.

And that is clearly NNTP.

Anyway, as long as I have a say here, the CadSoft support groups' database

will be the NNTP server on news.cadsoft.de. Web forums may interface to these

groups and do their best to display the postings correctly and send their

postings to the news server in a proper way. However, there is only one

place that is the ultimate reference, and that's news.cadsoft.de.

Klaus Schmidinger

--

_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger                       Phone: +49-8635-6989-10

CadSoft Computer GmbH                   Fax:   +49-8635-6989-40

Pleidolfweg 15                          Email:   kls@cadsoft.de

D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany           URL:     www.cadsoft.de

_______________________________________________________________

"Olin Lathrop" <eagle@embedinc.com> wrote in message

news:i1f59h$fs5$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

So anyone making suggestions you don't like is "noise"?  That's rather

arrogant, especially considering a number of the posts are yours.

Are you for real? All non-eagle topics are noise. And I was trying to please

you . (That is not easy!)

>> The thing is we will never agree, so Ill focus on satisfying both.

>

That's exactly what my suggestion addresses.  So once again, what's wrong

with it?

The only thing I can see wrong with your approach is that Cadsoft ends up

with the workload if something doesn't work. That is why NNTP should still

be the base of this forum, and those who wants colors and 'blinking ads' can

have the workload themselves.

Quote:

>> If you never touch the nntp interface, you will never notice, except

>> for some posts being boring monochrome.

>

I'm not following.  I don't know what you mean by "touching" the NNTP

interface, and what am I supposed to notice or not notice?

I mean touching as in "using/browsing/writing to".

Morten Leikvoll wrote on Mon, 12 July 2010 03:29

Quote:

Think of it flipped around for a minute.  The NNTP experience

would still

be the same (actually a little better in a few places, see my

other post),

but more and richer meta information about each post can be

stored on a

real forum server.  Seriously, how does this not address most

peoples

wants best?

 

See all the noise above for the answer.

So anyone making suggestions you don't like is "noise"?  That's rather

arrogant, especially considering a number of the posts are yours.

Quote:

The thing is we will never agree, so Ill focus on satisfying both.

That's exactly what my suggestion addresses.  So once again, what's wrong

with it?

Quote:

If you never touch the nntp interface, you will never notice, except

for some posts being boring monochrome.

I'm not following.  I don't know what you mean by "touching" the NNTP

interface, and what am I supposed to notice or not notice?

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

"Olin Lathrop" <eagle@embedinc.com> wrote in message

news:i19uq5$k5t$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de...

You are still thinking of this as a underlying NNTP server with

"gateways".

Think of it flipped around for a minute.  The NNTP experience would still

be the same (actually a little better in a few places, see my other post),

but more and richer meta information about each post can be stored on a

real forum server.  Seriously, how does this not address most peoples

wants

best?

See all the noise above for the answer. The thing is we will never agree, so

Ill focus on satisfying both. If you never touch the nntp interface, you

will never notice, except for some posts being boring monochrome.

"Oliver Betz" <obetz@despammed.com> wrote in message

news:2ume361r3l3dl3k6eialeftjtv2an9cqvn@news.cadsoft.de...

Could you point out the benefit of your solution over web access to

the NNTP groups?

That would leave Cadsoft alone with their NNTP interface, and give clear

guidance (and point responsibility) to whoever wants to relay it.

And we will get rid of all this noise

Cadsoft should not have to worry about these external relays. They need to

focus on Eagle better and keep all maintenance costs low.

Tilmann Reh wrote on Sat, 10 July 2010 16:14

You obviously are not aware of the footer eaglecentral automatically

adds to all messages sent from there (including yours):

Actually I am, but your point escapes me since I didn't put them there.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Tilmann Reh wrote on Sat, 10 July 2010 16:08

and keep telling us that this was the only right way.

You need to start actually reading what I wrote.  If you look carefully,

what I suggest would make things better for everyone.  I also don't go

around telling people they should be using the forums, as you do with the

newsgroups.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.