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EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
  • license
  • freeware
  • 8.0
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Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 8 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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Top Replies

  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest +4
    Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 8 years ago +3
    Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport +3
    Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done…
Parents
  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 8 years ago

    Hi Matt,

     

    I already had my most pressing concern answered to my satisfaction by Jorge which was relating to still being able to run EAGLE on multiple machines as I need to run it up across at least 3 different machines in my lab, but it seems I can still do that so all is good there.

     

    If I was pressed on the subscription issue, I would say that I do much prefer to just buy the software outright, but if subscription is the only way from now on then so be it, I will deal. Having to activate the license with an Autodesk account isn't really something that will often be an issue for me as my machines are always on the internet but I can see why others my find this more problematic. I do understand why you are changing it, but I think it's a very sensitive subject for a lot of people though because of the debacle with the licensing when v7 was first released, so any changes in this area are going to come under a lot of scrutiny from the loyal EAGLE user base who stuck with CadSoft previously. I do wonder if it would be possible to satisfy the need for a permanent license which doesn't expire within your new licensing system though? How about the following as licensing options?

     

    1) Free license. Activate initially and lasts forever. Upgrading to new versions would simply require a one time server activation each time they upgraded.

     

    2) Monthly license. Activate at start of month. Software will run for 1 calendar month and then attempt to re-activate with the server. Autodesk account could be set up to either auto renew or a one off payment requiring a new purchase, this would ensure people didn't buy another month without realising they would be doing so, or forgetting to cancel a direct debit. This is one of my issues with monthly subscription software, it's easy to forget to cancel the subscription and that can be annoying. Upgrades to new versions will be accessible so long as a valid subscription still exists and as per free would require activating with the server.

     

    3) 1/2/3 Year licenses. As per monthly but for longer periods of time. Full access to any upgrades within this period as per the monthly license. At the end of the 1/2/3 year period it could be possible to offer to either a) take out another subscription, b) cancel any direct debits (if a one was set up) and discontinue use, or c) Make an additional payment to convert the longer term fixed period licenses to permanent licenses so people could continue at their current version (or versions within the same release version) indefinitely. See below.

     

    4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the moment.

     

    I think all of these could be covered by the Autodesk licensing system, hopefully without too much difficulty and without conflicting with the objectives of Autodesk, and I think they might satisfy most of what people would require. I don't think you'd have to have a strange hybrid of the old and new licensing systems within the one piece of software....

     

    Best Regards,


    Rachael

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:07

    4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial

    setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same

    version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available

    for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the

    other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and

    installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their

    permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered

    at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the

    moment.

     

     

    Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older

    versions.

    No need to activate again when you replace your computer.

    What if they pull the plug from the activation server?

     

    The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's

    absolutely NO REASON

    to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a

    pirated & patched copy will

    appear on the internet/torrents.

    As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but

    will not stop piracy.

     

     

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 16:48

    On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote:

     

    Hi Markus,

    I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a

    very long

    time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between

    20 to

    40 request of existing users asking to get access to their

    license

    because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their

    installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might

    reach

    hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended

    to

    work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.

     

    Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they

    messed it up. Would be fair enough.

     

    Nice extra revenue image

     

    I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so.

     

     

    Nor have I as a user.

     

    As a distributor I started a policy about 2 years ago to charge $25 to

    replace lost licenses, it was very clear in the email sent out with license

    info.  After that, no one complained and I only had one customer who needed

    to use it--and he apologized for the extra work he caused us.

     

    Cheers,

     

    James.

     

    --

    James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

    http://www.stratforddigital.ca

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

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  • Justynb
    Justynb over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:48

    On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote:

     

    Hi Markus,

    I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a

    very long

    time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between

    20 to

    40 request of existing users asking to get access to their

    license

    because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their

    installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might

    reach

    hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended

    to

    work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.

     

    Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they

    messed it up. Would be fair enough.

     

    Nice extra revenue image

     

    I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so.

     

     

    Alternatively since every purchaser from now on is inevitably going to need

    an Autodesk account, just a link to download their key from their account

    page on the site. Then it is up to them whether they keep it safe or not.

     

    Sounds like a pretty simple solution to me.

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp <noreply-391202@element14.com> wrote:

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older

    versions.

    No need to activate again when you replace your computer.

    What if they pull the plug from the activation server?

     

    I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge

    company and have been providing products in other areas for many

    years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going

    to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so

    the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is

    miniscule.

     

    Hewlett-Packard was also huge. They bought Palm. Brought out new devices.

     

    Then canned the new products at almost the same time that they were

    released and stopped support for older Palm users a short time thereafter.

     

    A "phone home" bfeature is unacceptable to those working in

    disconnected environments. Disconnected for security reasons

    (proprietary or other secrets) or because the only connection that

    they have to the Internet is sporadic or unreliable.

     

    AutoDesk *fails* sometimes. e.g. Fusion360 users were left twiddling

    their thumbs not so long ago when the server became unreachable to

    some. Machines dependent on Fusion 360 in the workflow could no

    longer make new stuff. AutoDesk appear to have relaxed the "offline

    mode" since then but this is what you get now:

     

    https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/How-to-work-in-offline-mode-in-Fusion-360.html

    Can I still work in offline mode?

     

    Yes, you can still continue to work on your designs in offline mode.

    Designs that are cached locally on your machine will be available

    from the data panel. You can work offline up to a period of two

    weeks if needed. After this, Fusion 360 will need to sync back

    online so that you can stay on the latest version.

     

    The licence scheme is brain-damaged even for those who accept the

    risks of connectivity. Causing the software to stop functioning when

    it cannot "phone home" is a show-stopper for those who don't see

    a perpetual existence of AutoDesk or its willingness to support

    Eagle in the years to come. There is not infrequently a need for

    designers of products to provide support for between 2 and 25 years

    with the median somewhere around 7 years; depending on product and

    markets.

     

    As far as I can tell, AutoDesk revenue streaming licence scheme for

    version 8.x can only guarantee to support Eagle users' needs for 14

    days; the longest phone-home interval.

     

    It's not paranoia to anticipate and to plan for the failure of

    things that can fail; it's called "engineering".

    --

    /"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia

    \ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an

    X   against HTML mail     | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

    / \  and postings          |  --HL Mencken

     

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  • technolomaniac
    technolomaniac over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Design blocks are a completely unique file type (also XML) and when placed, do not affect the current file format at all so nothing will change as yet but it may be the sort of things which changes over time.  We have also agreed internally to build an exporter to legacy (v7) EAGLE to help quell the fears of legacy users...this is on our roadmap for this year. 

     

    Regarding freeware, as I stated in the Autodesk forums, the next release (probably a week or two away, 8.0.1) will only check the license once when you install and then anytime that you upgrade the tools to a subsequent version.

     

    best regards,

     

    matt

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Quote:

    Design blocks are a completely unique file type (also XML) and when

    placed, do not affect the current file format at all so nothing will

    change as yet but it may be the sort of things which changes over time.

     

    Will you be publishing the spec/dtd for that file type?

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    On 28/01/2017 11:16 a.m., Matt Berggren wrote:

     

    ...... Regarding freeware, as I stated in the Autodesk forums, the next release (probably a week or two away, 8.0.1) will only check the license once when you install and then anytime that you upgrade the tools to a subsequent version.

     

    best regards,

     

    matt

     

     

     

     

    Hi Matt

    Now there's the problem, which I confess to overlooking previously.

     

    If you have to rebuild your PC and the internet validation is not

    available at that time, you cannot even use the freeware version as

    currently you would need to go on-line to validate it once.

     

    I suggest you change things so that when you seek to download the

    software for the first time you need to have previously registered with

    Autodesk. That gives your company the metrics of who is downloading etc.

    Once that is done once you can download the product and it, as freeware

    restricted , does not have to revalidate unless you wish to obtain

    updates later than that initial package.

     

    With A PC rebuild you would simply reinstall the package you initially

    downloaded and you would be up and running on the freeware version.

    Hence no dependency on an internet connection or licensee validation

    infrastructure at all at that time.

     

    HTH

    Warren

     

    --

    ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like

    Thunderbird!

    ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE

    support forums.

     

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  • technolomaniac
    technolomaniac over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    We will.  Yes.

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  • techsupport
    techsupport over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    Hi,

    The dtd file is in the EAGLE\DOC folder.

    Ed

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 7 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 1/19/2017 10:09 AM, Tilmann Reh wrote:

    Rachael schrieb:

     

    It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two

    separate licensing systems within the software is another thing entirely.

    It might lead to unforeseen issues.

     

    Not supporting that might also lead to issues - foreseen, however: many

    people won't subscribe and move on to other software.

     

    It doesn't make any sense to try to force users into a subscription

    model if they don't want that. In fact, I would rather switch to a

    completely different CAD than "upgrade" to a subscription license.

     

    It's all that easy: if there are no permanent offline licenses any more,

    many will leave - or simply continue to use their existing licenses.

    It's up to Autodesk to judge if that counts for them (and/or if

    eventually new customers who subscribe are able to compensate for that).

     

    Tilmann

     

     

    Hello Tilmann,

     

    I hope you're doing well. I need you to please send me an e-mail to

    support@cadsoftusa.com at your earliest convenience. There's an

    important matter I need to discuss with you.

     

    Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

     

    Best Regards,

    Jorge Garcia

     

    --

    We have a new forum here

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 7 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 2017-10-17 10:45, Jorge Garcia wrote:

    On 1/19/2017 10:09 AM, Tilmann Reh wrote:

    Rachael schrieb:

     

    It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two

    separate licensing systems within the software is another thing

    entirely.

    It might lead to unforeseen issues.

     

    Not supporting that might also lead to issues - foreseen, however: many

    people won't subscribe and move on to other software.

     

    It doesn't make any sense to try to force users into a subscription

    model if they don't want that. In fact, I would rather switch to a

    completely different CAD than "upgrade" to a subscription license.

     

    It's all that easy: if there are no permanent offline licenses any more,

    many will leave - or simply continue to use their existing licenses.

    It's up to Autodesk to judge if that counts for them (and/or if

    eventually new customers who subscribe are able to compensate for that).

     

    Tilmann

     

     

    Hello Tilmann,

     

    I hope you're doing well. I need you to please send me an e-mail to

    support@cadsoftusa.com at your earliest convenience. There's an

    important matter I need to discuss with you.

     

    Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

     

     

    I think Tilmann made some valid statements. Large companies are often ok

    with subscription licensing. Small companies are usually not yet that's

    where the bulk of real innovation happens. Those are the potential large

    customers of tomorrow.

     

    As a consultant I am often asked "What kind of oscilloscope should we

    buy?" or "What CAD package could you recommend for us?". The answers are

    typically not second-guessed and they buy what was recommended. For CAD

    I used to say "Eagle" because it fit nicely at small companies and even

    mid-sized ones. However, since the dreaded switch to subscriptions I can

    no longer recommend Eagle.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 7 years ago in reply to autodeskguest

    On 2017-10-17 10:45, Jorge Garcia wrote:

    On 1/19/2017 10:09 AM, Tilmann Reh wrote:

    Rachael schrieb:

     

    It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two

    separate licensing systems within the software is another thing

    entirely.

    It might lead to unforeseen issues.

     

    Not supporting that might also lead to issues - foreseen, however: many

    people won't subscribe and move on to other software.

     

    It doesn't make any sense to try to force users into a subscription

    model if they don't want that. In fact, I would rather switch to a

    completely different CAD than "upgrade" to a subscription license.

     

    It's all that easy: if there are no permanent offline licenses any more,

    many will leave - or simply continue to use their existing licenses.

    It's up to Autodesk to judge if that counts for them (and/or if

    eventually new customers who subscribe are able to compensate for that).

     

    Tilmann

     

     

    Hello Tilmann,

     

    I hope you're doing well. I need you to please send me an e-mail to

    support@cadsoftusa.com at your earliest convenience. There's an

    important matter I need to discuss with you.

     

    Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

     

     

    I think Tilmann made some valid statements. Large companies are often ok

    with subscription licensing. Small companies are usually not yet that's

    where the bulk of real innovation happens. Those are the potential large

    customers of tomorrow.

     

    As a consultant I am often asked "What kind of oscilloscope should we

    buy?" or "What CAD package could you recommend for us?". The answers are

    typically not second-guessed and they buy what was recommended. For CAD

    I used to say "Eagle" because it fit nicely at small companies and even

    mid-sized ones. However, since the dreaded switch to subscriptions I can

    no longer recommend Eagle.

     

    --

    Regards, Joerg

     

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

     

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