Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 18.01.2017 um 20:26 schrieb Matt Berggren:

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.

But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our

machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!

But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our

machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!

Yep. I could live with this "subscription" model, when it would look like:

You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as

it was before with the old system.

For each new release while still under subsciption, you can download a

new license key/installation code.

If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest

installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever

and also reinstall whenenver necessary.

No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can

download the latest license file/install code.

I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to

run on my computer.

I bought it I own it (the license).

Markus

But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our

machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!

Yep. I could live with this "subscription" model, when it would look like:

You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as

it was before with the old system.

For each new release while still under subsciption, you can download a

new license key/installation code.

If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest

installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever

and also reinstall whenenver necessary.

No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can

download the latest license file/install code.

I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to

run on my computer.

I bought it I own it (the license).

Markus

Hi Markus -

Thanks for your reply...Let me take a swing at this:

• But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!

Yes you do.  You have the freeware version and if you commit to the subscription version for some period of time (a month, a year), you will have all of the editing features enabled for all layers (whilst ensuring you get everything new that comes down the line like obstacle avoidance in routing, push and shove routing, better hierarchy, better design reuse, improved library editing, etc).  There's of course a quid pro quo:  just as you are subscribing to the product and betting on us, we need to be transparent about what we're adding and are incentivized or rather: obliged, to continue to deliver those capabilities which grow alongside the changing industry.  Point being, if you need to open a file, you always have the free version to fall back on.  If you need to edit, you only pay for what you need when you need it, and when you no longer need to, you can disable your subscription and save the single, monolithic price of a piece of perpetual SW.

• You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system.

Not going to this model and I guess Im unclear just how would this model work with subscription anyway?  When it times out, you still dont have what you are trying to achieve which sounds like a perpetual license.

Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days, having moved away from an activation code both to protect their investment in new feature development, whilst making it easier for more people to gain access to new tools.  The fact is that the activation code model does little to ensure both the security of a license whilst incentivizing the company making the SW to continue to develop the tools (you buy it, you get what you bought...no guarantees for more, it's all based on trust whether they decide to release an 8.1, 8.2, 8.3, etc). 

We can scale development with honest revenues and the easiest way to achieve that is to make it easier for a user to get software and pay for it.  A single, monolithic price of $1650 is out of reach of many people with a commercial product vision, and having already enabled a 6-layer license for education for free, we can expect that this too is another way to get EAGLE into the hands of more people at a lower price point.  An example: if you look at a $500 / yr sub across the avg 3 year release cycle, the product cost came down $150...if you paid monthly and spend 6 months designing and 6 months going to market, then you end up with an even lower total cost of ownership!

     For each new release while still under subscription, you can download a

     new license key/installation code.

     If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest

     installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever

     and also reinstall whenenver necessary.

And if you were on Monthly?  If you were on yearly?  Seems you are conflating the two models or maybe I'm unclear.

     No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can

     download the latest license file/install code.

     I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to

     run on my computer.

In fact, that is precisely what you get with this model; it is more licensing flexibility rather than less.  Sure, you have to sign in.  But you never lose your right to view data.

Hope that is clear!

Best regards,

Matt

Autodesk.

• You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system.

 

Not going to this model and I guess Im unclear just how would this model work with subscription anyway?

Yes monthly was not chosen very clever here. From the speed of

development in the history of CadSoft, I was used to spending ~500€

every 2-3 years or so on an update (we are a non-profit organisation).

I got my license key/installation code and could install the product on

any machine in lab, office, laptop, homeoffice, wherever I need to have

it, fire it up, runs. (We have the required number of licenses)

No Internet needed, FlexLM drama etc.

If the computer goes bonkers, reinstall, put license key, works (doesn't

matter where. We do field campaigns on ships, rain forrest, whatever.

Internet not always available.).

If I'm at some point unsatisfied with how the product evolves, I can

just stay at this revision, that most likely will still work fine for a

long time maybe even with the last operating system anyone will need

(Win10).

  When it times out, you still dont have what you are trying to achieve

which sounds like a perpetual license.

I guess you are correct.

 

Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days,

Yes and that is exactly the reason why im still running Windows 7 and

Office 2010. Activate once, keeps running. If stuff breaks down in the

middle of nowhere its already getting tricky (I guess it runs 30 days

without being activated)

having moved away from an activation code both to protect their investment in new feature development

And who is protecting my investment in the product the last 15 years

by not offering a non-permanent license anymore? All my efforts I put

into libraries and such? I even paid for a V7 license to support the

development of the product and actually till today do my designs in V6.6.

, whilst making it easier for more people to gain access to new tools.

I still wait for the features promised to be in V7 already...

The fact is that the activation code model does little to ensure both

the security of a license whilst incentivizing the company making the SW

to continue to develop the tools

(you buy it, you get what you bought...no guarantees for more, it's all

based on trust whether they decide to release an 8.1, 8.2, 8.3, etc).

Yeah you buy it, but you own it at least. If you see at some point noone

is listening to the customer base and the features you lack are not

comeing, you just don't buy the next upgrade,

but you still have a functional Software and not a nice file viewer

 

We can scale development with honest revenues and the easiest way to achieve that is to make it easier for a user to get software and pay for it.

I still think the 1650 price tag is in the range of what competitors are

asking for their annual "subscription/maintenance" however you name it.

As written above, I can plan on spending a fixed amount over a certain

range.

A single, monolithic price of $1650 is out of reach of many people with

a commercial product vision, and having already enabled a 6-layer

license for education for free,

I didn't ask for a free 6 layer version, I was fine with the reduced

price for Educational use. I will not complain though. Just send

everyone that qualifies for it a free registration code and things are

fine

  we can expect that this too is another way to get EAGLE into the hands

of more people at a lower price point.

An example: if you look at a $500 / yr sub across the avg 3 year release

cycle, the product cost came down $150...

if you paid monthly and spend 6 months designing and 6 months going to

market, then you end up with an even lower total cost of ownership!

As I said I have no problem with the pricing scheme as it was, I have a

problem with all this online login activation blahfoo and that I don't

have a fully functional, reinstallable software after subscription runs out.

Why don't you combine both models and let the users decide? If the

software is installed via the classical method with

licensefile/installationcode it's possible and just works.

If the user wants to upgrade to next major release, he pays the upgrade

price and its fine. If not he can be happy with his old version.

And if one wants to rent the software because it's cheaper for his

purposes he can let EAGLE login to his autodesk subcription every 14

days and be happy too.

I bet 90% of the community prefer the first scenario.

And if you were on Monthly?  If you were on yearly?  Seems you are conflating the two models or maybe I'm unclear.

Yeah I think more in "long term subscription" like a year or 3 years or so.

In fact, that is precisely what you get with this model; it is more licensing flexibility rather than less.  Sure, you have to sign in.

But you never lose your right to view data.

Yes but the right to work with the software

Markus

Of course it does take big money to pay good programmers/engineers and

staff, Autodesk has expenses to cover & they'd like to make more than bank

interest profit off of their investment--this revenue simply must be

supplied by Eagle users. 

Here is part of an old 'net post regarding upgrades (From James Morrison):

2)  And you can upgrade and only pay the difference (exception upgrade

from

light).  That fact alone will save $1000's if you have plans to scale.

CadSoft doesn't advertise this enough, IMHO.  Upgrades are a very minimum

cost.  The highest license cost $280 to upgrade to EAGLE 5.  A paid

upgrade

cycle is about 3 years.  Currently full new license is about $1500US.  So

all in all it is quite reasonable for what you get.

7)  Free support for life.  If you pay for a real license that includes

phone support.  And it's actually pretty good.  And an involved community

existed for further support.

So for the current Eagle users who have already invested in Eagle over the

years, what will be their upgrade costs now?  Certainly a savings or

discount over those who have not been users. This code be implemented as a

one-time discount code--maybe that will spur some to stay on the ship. 

--

http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

Matt Berggren said in his blog:

"What about the $169, 6-Layer Make License?

The $169 non-commercial Maker license lives on and will continue to live on

for the foreseeable future.  This is a great tool for people requiring that

extra bit of horsepower for their personal projects!"

I purchased this last year with the expectation of upgrading to the next

major version, but I see no mention of it on the Autodesk website.

Details please.

--

http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

Hi Matt, so to be clear with V8 we are obtaining a new copy of the

software based on subscription that has nothing to do with the previous

versions we paid for or where those were installed and used as I don't

see the words upgrade used anywhere.

I am a licensee of Unity3D. They too have gone the subscription route.

They offered existing PRO customers a 50% reduction in their yearly

subscription cost with an option to renew at that same price for a

second year.

Will Autodesk be offering any incentives to keep their existing customers?

Glenn

On 1/18/2017 2:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here> 

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us at all to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a paid version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection except when you first install it (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  *in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

 

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Matt Berggren schrieb:

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me.

You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models:

one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as

before: you get a key, you own the software.)

Tilmann

Matt Berggren schrieb:

Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days

Their subscription models are definitely keeping me from ever using that

software.

Just because others are doing it wrong, it's not the right way.

Tilmann