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EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
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  • 8.0
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Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 9 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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  • drkirkby
    drkirkby over 9 years ago in reply to techsupport

    Ed Robledo wrote:

     

    The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there. The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing.

    Best Regards,

    Ed

     

    I would be interesting to see if you can create a genuinely useful enhancement for Eagle, that will get as much reaction around the world as the licensing change has. I first heard about it on the time-nuts mailing list

     

    * Time-nuts

    https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=time-nuts@febo.com&q=subject:%22Re\%3A+\[time\-nuts\]+OT\%3A+Eagle+PC+CAD+now+Auto…

     

    * Hackaday

    Autodesk Moves EAGLE to Subscription Only Pricing | Hackaday

     

    * Kicad

    https://forum.kicad.info/t/autodesk-kills-the-golden-eagle/4964

     

    * Altium

    Switch from Eagle PCB

     

    Would incorporating a full 3D EM solver, create as much interest on so many forums? I suspect not.

     

    There does not appear to be any fall in the Autodesk share price - in fact, it is almost as high as it has ever been. So I guess shareholders are not objecting.

     

    Dave

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 14:31

    The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who

    previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no

    viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as

    they have no equivalent path to v8.

     

    I own a perpetual license of EAGLE, schematic, board and autorouter.  I

    think you and I are both waiting for some period of time to see if there is

    any reason that we should consider a subscription.  During that time,

    Autodesk might or might not create something wonderful that we have to

    have.  We'll see.

     

    I'm from the small business/DIY/hobby world and I'm a programmer by trade.

    I understand that Autodesk needs to make money from EAGLE and make it fit

    in with the rest of their product line.  On one hand, I hope that EAGLE

    grows into the full-fledged product that it might be.  On the other, I am

    now in a period of mourning because the old EAGLE and the community that

    surrounded it has been fractured and is probably gone forever.

     

    Yes, EAGLE itself is still as functional as it has ever been.  Yes, the

    subscription pricing is probably reasonable.  But for me, and I think for

    others, buying a copy of EAGLE (even though it's effectively only a license

    to use the software) gave us a sense of ownership, of buy-in to a pretty

    cool club.  Autodesk is too big to ever be that.  (Not their fault.)  That

    old club has been disbanded.  EAGLE is now just another tool from a big

    corporation.  Some day Jorge and Ed won't be the main support team any more

    and the transition will be complete.

     

    Yes, it's mainly emotions, but the people I used to share tips, tricks,

    scripts, and designs with are all angry and looking to switch to other

    products.  Like seeing an ex on the street, every time I start EAGLE, it

    reminds me of the way things used to be and that things are different now.

     

    This too shall pass...

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • techsupport
    techsupport over 9 years ago in reply to albertovignati

    The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE.

    Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they

    were not done in the first place.

     

    Good! Said that, please, fix the license!

    The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there.  The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing. 

    Best Regards,

    Ed

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  • rachaelp
    rachaelp over 9 years ago in reply to geralds

    Hi Gerald,

     

    Not wishing to be mistaken for an Autodesk employee again as I am not, but I will comment again anyway.

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.

    Customers are really punished with this action.

    Why is this a problem? If you need to use it you renew your subscription. If you don't need to use it then you don't pay until you do.

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

    With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model.

     

    Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely! image

     

    Gerald Schwarz wrote:

     

    -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,

    after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,

    and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".

     

    When you switch on your software it contacts the Autodesk servers and your software starts up and works again. They don't take it away and confiscate your subscription if your computer doesn't contact them image The only issue is if you don't have internet access. This could be solved by Autodesk making the call home period equal to the license period, so if you had a three year subscription it would continue to work for three years before dialling home. It would still have to dial home for activating any updates but making the call home match the license period would remove a lot of concerns of people in remote or internet starved places.

     

    Sorry if you think I am sticking up for Autodesk too much, I can understand peoples grievances with the licensing change, especially as Farnell tried to do this too (but in my opinion much worse and they implemented the dreaded flexlm licensing!), but quite frankly some peoples demands are going far beyond reasonable in the other direction. I think with a few more relatively benign tweaks to the licensing that I have mentioned in several threads over the last couple of days the majority of the issues could be resolved. I'm sure Autodesk are reading these suggestions, we'll just have to see if they come up with any additional concessions.

     

    At the end of the day v7 is still a good product and I have that license so if v8 doesn't pan out for whatever reason I will fall back to that until I need capabilities beyond what it can give. I don't see the need for throwing tantrums on forums and ditching all of my existing setup because of a licensing change that won't cost me any more money. The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael

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  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 9 years ago in reply to techsupport

    Il 21/02/2017 22:20, techsupport ha scritto:

     

    The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. 

    Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they

    were not done in the first place.

     

    Good! Said that, please, fix the license!

     

    Best regards

     

    Alberto

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  • techsupport
    techsupport over 9 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1,

    are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape

    routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed

    i.e. testing has become less important.

    Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer

    want.

     

    It is no uncommon for a brand new major release to have a some incidents or issues.  The difference is how fast does the developing team make the changes to solve it.  Autodesk did prove this when releasing an update to 8.0.1 which solved the majority of issues in less than 2 weeks. The latest implementation were based on improvements being requested by the users, there is no foundation indicating Autodesk doesn't care about the customer. The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE.  Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done in the first place.

    Best Regards,

    Ed

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  • geralds
    geralds over 9 years ago in reply to techsupport

    Hi Ed,

     

    please, once more, as i said:

    Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

    NOT THE PRICE IS THE PROBLEM.

     

    The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.

    Customers are really punished with this action.

     

    In no other (nearly / - small companies that grabbing money) company I know such this action.

     

    This is as if you have a car fully equipped, then suddenly all 4 wheels AND the steering wheel takes away, steals away.

    In this way, the paid full license is stolen away.

     

    That's the clearly argument in this business with AutoDesk.

    All other is lobbyism. One person talks about this, another about that, but not all together in confirmation.

    So because of that yesterday i suggested the 4 points.

     

    ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

     

    -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,

    after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,

    and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".

    I know 100%, since many years that AutoDesk makes highest quality software; please also with Eagle too.

     

    Autodesk EAGLE

    -> here in that list is missing something, -> Standard version

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 9 years ago in reply to rbtx99

    On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:37:44 GMT, rbtx99

    <noreply-375754@element14.com> wrote:

     

    Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye.

     

    WOOT!!!!

    John DeArmond

    http://www.neon-john.com

    http://www.tnduction.com

    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN

    See website for email address

     

     

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  • brentbolton
    brentbolton over 9 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Hi Matt,

     

    Forgotten in this discussion about license models is the perspective that we as users have put a lot of effort into developing expertise using EagleCAD. And for many of us, our livelihood is dependent on that expertise. With your subscription model you have, in effect, take that expertise hostage, I .e. pay up or your knowledge is now worthless. To me, this represents a breach of trust between Autodesk and the EagleCAD user community and indicates a company that is more concerned with itself than with its customers. I went through this once before when OrCAD was purchased by Cadence and so I am perhaps hyper-sensitized. I used EagleCAD precisely because it was not a product of a big faceless CAD vendor that could care less about my tiny contribution to their bottom line. My inclination now is to cut my losses and go with an open source package like KiCAD so that I never have to go through this again. Whatever I do, rest assured that unless Autodesk changes course and offers an affordable perpetual license option my days of using EagleCAD are numbered.

     

    Sincerely,

    Brent Bolton

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 9 years ago

    The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1,

    are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape

    routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed

    i.e. testing has become less important.

    Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer

    want.

     

    I want to buy a license for V7 but autodesk don't let me because they know

    that people who already have

    a license for V7, will not "upgrade" to V8 and their subscription. So much

    for their confidence in their

    new product...

     

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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