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EAGLE User Chat (English) Eagle v8 licensing...
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  • eagle
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  • 8.0
Related

Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac
technolomaniac over 8 years ago

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

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Top Replies

  • COMPACT
    COMPACT over 8 years ago in reply to autodeskguest +4
    Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 8 years ago +3
    Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE…
  • albertovignati
    albertovignati over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport +3
    Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done…
  • technolomaniac
    technolomaniac over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    @Klaus, et. Al --

     

    You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity.  I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!).  We had both import and export.  Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall). 

     

    Moving forward, a better parser would be smart enough to omit those elements that it doesn't understand in the XML so you dont need to export the data.  This is a pretty high priority item because forward <> backward compatibility will give users confidence that they aren't "trapped" in a specific version.  The move to XML was a wise one as it gives us a lot more flexibility with this process than using a stream writer class, encoding things in bitfields.  This process is underway but it will take some time to implement.  It'll happen this year though I suppose. 

     

    Going back to version 7 is as far back as we want to go because as hierarchy becomes more "complete" we dont want to have to flatten everything out and it could get far more risky.  The trick with any of this is then also maintaining syncing.  So whatever we do to one editor has to be considered in how we deal with the other.  This is par for the course but something to keep our eye(s) on. 

     

    Future releases, we'll update the parser so if some new item is introduced, it just opens the file and omits that item or throws a warning and reverts to a legacy item.  For example, if we added a new "board" object built from complex polys instead of lines and arcs, we need to decide what to do if you want to open this in an older version.  That's one area where we need to be careful and deliberate in our implementation. 

     

    Hope this is clear.  We are thinking about this for sure.  Any feedback (or any insights from the Cadsoft legend!) would be hugely valuable!

     

    Best regards,

     

    Matt - Autodesk.

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  • rbtx99
    rbtx99 over 8 years ago in reply to rachaelp

    A promise from Autodesk to support future export compatibility with v7 worth as much as their promise to keep the perpetual license.

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  • geralds
    geralds over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Matt Berggren wrote:

     

    @Klaus, et. Al --

     

    You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity. I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!). We had both import and export. Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall).

     

     

    Hi Matt,

     

    Congratulations! Now.... we make a small step forward.

     

    At that time, pre Altium, with PCAD 4.5 (1985); 5.0 (1986,..,87); .... 8..8.5 ( first program for Windows; 1988...2000; after that i used PCAD 2001, 2002) that was  the theater that the files in binary wasn't compatible to each versions. (now you can sense how old i am... image )

    Only with the interface export/import in ASCII format (every time we jumped across in the shell) was able to convert to the newer software version.

     

    But, that was the point, all wires was fixed as wire, absolut stabil.

    They didn't merged with lines (drawing lines). This was it what i loved against some other tools, e.g. from cadence.
    The second software that have a stabil wire connection is Eagle and this have its famous price: cheap and easy to use.

     

    But now the quality was lost.

    The quality can be bring back if the price categories also the license policy be actualized to the today's standards.

     

    What i suggest is:
    1) Free version 160cm² (Eurocard) with two layers.
    2) Standard version DIN A4 format, because most printer (e.g. laser printer) can print out the layouts in this format, with all layers (16).
    3) Premium format as we have, 16m² 16 layers, or if you like, 32 layers or such as Altium Designer.
    4) The license quality does NOT falling back to the free version, it must staying at the last state of its paid category.

     

    Then in the future, what you want to do with your promise.

    With this I'm sure, absolutely, you can hold all your customers.

     

    ->

    Ähm,,,, "wire" "lines" -- in an forum I've read the wires will be lines, also in ULP.

    hm.... i think that would be not so good.
    This problem was often - the user drawn lines but he wanted wires.
    And if the colors are the same then they have problems with interpreting, what is connected wire or what is a graphical line.
    Most users are eyes orientated, so they drawing what they can see, not what they can program.
    I suggest, keep it by strict separating.

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

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  • techsupport
    techsupport over 8 years ago in reply to geralds

    HI,

    As in any new project, the first big step is to revamp the engine.  And that is what Autodesk is diligently working on, setting up the foundation for the aggressive road-map they have traced for EAGLE.  In this latest version, they have added more features compared to the latest 2 major releases, please remember that the acquisition was like 6 months ago.  Its obvious that many don't agree with subscription, but with the same breath the community and users ask or almost demand new features.  Without raising up-front the price, how else will this be done? Making EAGLE affordable is paramount, but continued implementation to the software is just as important as the engineering of PCB design is continuously evolving.  Earlier attempts of adding an aggressive licensing failed, I am really glad it did because users wouldn't be getting nothing in return for this non sense. With this new model, you will get continued significant updates.

    Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems. 

    I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another, that is a personal decision, I just think Autodesk has done a lot in a very short time, and ask the community for some patience, you will be pleasantly surprised.

    Best Regards,

    Ed

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  • drkirkby
    drkirkby over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport

    Ed Robledo wrote:

    .

    Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems.

     

    Best Regards,

    Ed

     

    My experience is that this might work for a release or two, but as time goes on, the export will be less reliable.

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  • Joop14
    Joop14 over 8 years ago

    The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1,

    are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape

    routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed

    i.e. testing has become less important.

    Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer

    want.

     

    I want to buy a license for V7 but autodesk don't let me because they know

    that people who already have

    a license for V7, will not "upgrade" to V8 and their subscription. So much

    for their confidence in their

    new product...

     

     

     

     

    --

    EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

     

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  • brentbolton
    brentbolton over 8 years ago in reply to technolomaniac

    Hi Matt,

     

    Forgotten in this discussion about license models is the perspective that we as users have put a lot of effort into developing expertise using EagleCAD. And for many of us, our livelihood is dependent on that expertise. With your subscription model you have, in effect, take that expertise hostage, I .e. pay up or your knowledge is now worthless. To me, this represents a breach of trust between Autodesk and the EagleCAD user community and indicates a company that is more concerned with itself than with its customers. I went through this once before when OrCAD was purchased by Cadence and so I am perhaps hyper-sensitized. I used EagleCAD precisely because it was not a product of a big faceless CAD vendor that could care less about my tiny contribution to their bottom line. My inclination now is to cut my losses and go with an open source package like KiCAD so that I never have to go through this again. Whatever I do, rest assured that unless Autodesk changes course and offers an affordable perpetual license option my days of using EagleCAD are numbered.

     

    Sincerely,

    Brent Bolton

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  • autodeskguest
    autodeskguest over 8 years ago in reply to rbtx99

    On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:37:44 GMT, rbtx99

    <noreply-375754@element14.com> wrote:

     

    Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye.

     

    WOOT!!!!

    John DeArmond

    http://www.neon-john.com

    http://www.tnduction.com

    Tellico Plains, Occupied TN

    See website for email address

     

     

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  • geralds
    geralds over 8 years ago in reply to techsupport

    Hi Ed,

     

    please, once more, as i said:

    Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

    NOT THE PRICE IS THE PROBLEM.

     

    The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.

    Customers are really punished with this action.

     

    In no other (nearly / - small companies that grabbing money) company I know such this action.

     

    This is as if you have a car fully equipped, then suddenly all 4 wheels AND the steering wheel takes away, steals away.

    In this way, the paid full license is stolen away.

     

    That's the clearly argument in this business with AutoDesk.

    All other is lobbyism. One person talks about this, another about that, but not all together in confirmation.

    So because of that yesterday i suggested the 4 points.

     

    ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

     

    -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,

    after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,

    and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".

    I know 100%, since many years that AutoDesk makes highest quality software; please also with Eagle too.

     

    Autodesk EAGLE

    -> here in that list is missing something, -> Standard version

     

    Best Regards,

    Gerald

    ---

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  • techsupport
    techsupport over 8 years ago in reply to Joop14

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1,

    are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape

    routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed

    i.e. testing has become less important.

    Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer

    want.

     

    It is no uncommon for a brand new major release to have a some incidents or issues.  The difference is how fast does the developing team make the changes to solve it.  Autodesk did prove this when releasing an update to 8.0.1 which solved the majority of issues in less than 2 weeks. The latest implementation were based on improvements being requested by the users, there is no foundation indicating Autodesk doesn't care about the customer. The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE.  Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done in the first place.

    Best Regards,

    Ed

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