EAGLE License Recommendat ion

James Morrison wrote on Mon, 23 January 2017 13:24

No one has an issue with requiring the internet on installation or

upgrading of EAGLE.

Almost.  I have one customer where I run Eagle on a computer in a secure

lab.  There is no internet connection.

I realize this scenario is rare, but there are instances out there.

Autodesk should not ignore them because even though the lost revenue is

small, the impact on customers in that position is not.  They are basically

forcing use of a competing package.  Once you learn a tool and invest in

it, you're a lot more likely to use it elsewhere.

Since the numbers of Eagle licenses in secure labs would be small, perhaps

they can be dealt with by manual intervention.  I would be OK with having

to call someone, explain the situation, have them do a little sanity check

on me and the company, then give me a stand-alone license.  A little more

hassle for this case is OK, as long as there is a way.

Quote:

For this argument, "trusting Autodesk will allow it" will not be

accepted as an allowable answer.

I totally agree.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Any update on this Autodesk?  Matt?

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

http://www.stratforddigital.ca

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Hi James, et. Al --

I've sent a number of variations of this email over the last few days, so

let me share it and solicit people's feedback.  This is some of what

we're doing to make this model a bit more user-friendly and I want to be

clear, there is an eagerness to get this right, whilst still ensuring we

hit our objectives.  Constructive comments are welcome.

Firstly, thank you for your email and insights; it's clear that you've

thought deeply about this and I appreciate your honest, unfiltered

feedback. I've watched and responded on the various forums where I felt it

might help but the response means we can't hit every post, unfortunately.

The subscription debate is a tough one for sure, and one we didn't take

lightly, I can assure you. We toiled for some time along with the support

team and the development group to decide just when to make the move. To be

sure, it doesn't sit well right now with some folks, however let me try and

give you some context for "why?" we made the decision and what capabilities

the tools already provides (or we're working on) to ensure you have lasting

SW to work with yourdata...

Firstly, from the outset we knew we've wanted to integrate EAGLE's

capabilities with MCAD, MFG, Cutting (CAM), etc to provide something far in

excess of any 'ECAD<>MCAD' solution on the market. After all, this is a

deep part of Autodesk's history and the value we bring to the table, and

the company has been centered around 3D CAD, even when done in 2D (for

example Autocad) for 25+ years. Thus, we have been looking long and hard at

what it takes to build 'whole products' and this acquisition of an

electronics solution marks just the beginning of a process that'll take us

in some wild directions. That being said, we are working on this and will

continue, hybridizing EAGLE's schematic and PCB capabilities with an MCAD +

MFG workflow that we hope will prove second-to-none.

That being said, all of our tools are subscription and with me having been

a relatively new addition to Autodesk (I ran product at Supplyframe which

owns Hackaday and 15 years w/Altium before that), this was a decision that

was made before my time... Still, I support it. (Not just being a lemming,

I support this 100%.) The argument / debate is largely about making tools

available if/when you need them and providing a continuous stream of

updates / value that's achievable when you consistent revenue stream to

fund R&D. It's a curious model for ECAD, to be sure, however it doesn't

come without us taking a huge hit in those first few years!  (We lose

substantial annual revenue as we move customers over, as you might

imagine.) 

Now to be sure, subscription has the potential for revenue 'upside', but I

want to be 100% clear: even if I doubled EAGLE's revenue tomorrow, I

wouldn't move the Autodesk needle even ½ of 1%. At a ~$17B market cap,

EAGLE's revenue is not why we acquired it and we are not the evil overlords

come down to squeeze every last cent out of EAGLE's most loyal users (it

was my decision to make, and I wasn't focused on the incremental revenue).

What motivated the acquisition were really two things: 1) the core

capabilities on which we could build what we're endeavoring to build and 2)

the community. Now of course the latter (at least on public forums)

probably appears frustrated at the moment  I assure you, it stresses me out

too (nobody is losing more sleep than me over the change!)  but truth be

told, the vast majority of EAGLE users we not inclined to upgrade to the

latest and greatest version. Why? Perhaps because they never felt they were

getting enough value, version to version, for this to make sense?

Regardless of the reason, the bulk of EAGLE users are on v5 or v6...Not v7.

Whether we like it or not, I have to operate on the facts.

So with all of that in mind, we want a license model which aligns to the

larger Autodesk so we can integrate EAGLE (in a hard way...not a "passing

files back and forth" way) into Autodesk's larger platform, which is both

subscription and thriving.  So the question was: when to rip off the band

aid? And what could we do to make it hurt a little less.

With regard to that last item, here's what we've settled on thus far for

ensuring you have legacy SW and versions and data available to you:

1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection the

first time you open it.

2) The free version should open files of any size and layer count and allow

you to place NEW objects anywhere within the extents of the free version.

3) The free version should allow you to output files (gerber, PDF, NCDrill,

etc) of any size or layer count, regardless of the license you have.

4) Any paid license should automatically roll over to the free version

if/when your license lapses.  (working on this)

5) Every version of the free software will be made available for download

outside of the normal update system.

6) We will not own your data and will continue to publish an XML file + DTD

for all eagle file types.

7) We will expand the EAGLE API (coming soon-ish) to ensure users have

access to EAGLE's datamodel via Javascript, Node, etc., to ensure a pipe

out of EAGLE is easy to implement.

8) We will continue to make all legacy and new versions available for

download.

9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of EAGLE

with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support

implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get

this right just yet, but it's coming).

10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and

ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.

I know that's a mouthful but I wanted to be sure and stress that we're

trying really hard to make this work in a way that works for the user. My

background is as an engineer and I live in this community in a real way

(not as some passive marketing ***), thus I'm hoping that having built

consumer products, I'm covering many of the bases with this strategy.  (And

believe me it hurts when my friends call me out and tell me I'm squeezing

them or locking away their data or that I just dont "get" it.)  Still, I'm

sure there'll be gaps. Some are unavoidable, some perhaps just oversights

on our part.

What I'd love is if you all could, in a constructive way, look thru that

list and let me know whether you think there's more than you already knew

today (which means I needed to get onto the forums and discuss this in

greater detail) and also, what you think about some of these items as a way

forward (although perhaps suboptimal...are they meaningful?).

I really DO value your feedback and I can assure you, I'm working my tail

off to make sure we demonstrate value to users like yourself and others who

have shown such an obvious passion for the product. It's not easy to be

parsimonious and also explain the "whole" view, so this is an email I may I

have sent in various forms to different people and it's all changed a

little each time as I go thru it, just to ensure I make the salient points.

I didn't want to send a half-hearted reply widely for fear I end up under

the microscope with every troll in Trollville pushing their agenda with my

words.   But this is where we're at and I can tell you, that we will

continue with subscription as we move forward, though we are making

attempts to be concessionary and meet the community half way.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Matt

--

I solve problems.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Matt Berggren wrote:

Hi James, et. Al --

 

I've sent a number of variations of this email over the last few days, so

let me share it and solicit people's feedback.  This is some of what

we're doing to make this model a bit more user-friendly and I want to be

clear, there is an eagerness to get this right, whilst still ensuring we

hit our objectives.  Constructive comments are welcome.

 

Firstly, thank you for your email and insights; it's clear that you've

thought deeply about this and I appreciate your honest, unfiltered

feedback. I've watched and responded on the various forums where I felt it

might help but the response means we can't hit every post, unfortunately.

 

The subscription debate is a tough one for sure, and one we didn't take

lightly, I can assure you. We toiled for some time along with the support

team and the development group to decide just when to make the move. To be

sure, it doesn't sit well right now with some folks, however let me try

and give you some context for "why?" we made the decision and what

capabilities the tools already provides (or we're working on) to ensure

you have lasting SW to work with yourdata...

 

Firstly, from the outset we knew we've wanted to integrate EAGLE's

capabilities with MCAD, MFG, Cutting (CAM), etc to provide something far

in excess of any 'ECAD<>MCAD' solution on the market. After all, this is a

deep part of Autodesk's history and the value we bring to the table, and

the company has been centered around 3D CAD, even when done in 2D (for

example Autocad) for 25+ years. Thus, we have been looking long and hard

at what it takes to build 'whole products' and this acquisition of an

electronics solution marks just the beginning of a process that'll take us

in some wild directions. That being said, we are working on this and will

continue, hybridizing EAGLE's schematic and PCB capabilities with an MCAD

+ MFG workflow that we hope will prove second-to-none.

 

That being said, all of our tools are subscription and with me having been

a relatively new addition to Autodesk (I ran product at Supplyframe which

owns Hackaday and 15 years w/Altium before that), this was a decision that

was made before my time... Still, I support it. (Not just being a lemming,

I support this 100%.) The argument / debate is largely about making tools

available if/when you need them and providing a continuous stream of

updates / value that's achievable when you consistent revenue stream to

fund R&D. It's a curious model for ECAD, to be sure, however it doesn't

come without us taking a huge hit in those first few years!  (We lose

substantial annual revenue as we move customers over, as you might

imagine.)

 

Now to be sure, subscription has the potential for revenue 'upside', but I

want to be 100% clear: even if I doubled EAGLE's revenue tomorrow, I

wouldn't move the Autodesk needle even ½ of 1%. At a ~$17B market cap,

EAGLE's revenue is not why we acquired it and we are not the evil

overlords come down to squeeze every last cent out of EAGLE's most loyal

users (it was my decision to make, and I wasn't focused on the incremental

revenue).

 

 

What motivated the acquisition were really two things: 1) the core

capabilities on which we could build what we're endeavoring to build and

2) the community. Now of course the latter (at least on public forums)

probably appears frustrated at the moment  I assure you, it stresses me

out

too (nobody is losing more sleep than me over the change!)  but truth be

told, the vast majority of EAGLE users we not inclined to upgrade to the

latest and greatest version. Why? Perhaps because they never felt they

were getting enough value, version to version, for this to make sense?

Regardless of the reason, the bulk of EAGLE users are on v5 or v6...Not

v7.

Whether we like it or not, I have to operate on the facts.

 

So with all of that in mind, we want a license model which aligns to the

larger Autodesk so we can integrate EAGLE (in a hard way...not a "passing

files back and forth" way) into Autodesk's larger platform, which is both

subscription and thriving.  So the question was: when to rip off the band

aid? And what could we do to make it hurt a little less.

 

With regard to that last item, here's what we've settled on thus far for

ensuring you have legacy SW and versions and data available to you:

 

1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection

the first time you open it.

2) The free version should open files of any size and layer count and

allow you to place NEW objects anywhere within the extents of the free

version. 3) The free version should allow you to output files (gerber,

PDF, NCDrill, etc) of any size or layer count, regardless of the license

you have. 4) Any paid license should automatically roll over to the free

version

if/when your license lapses.  (working on this)

5) Every version of the free software will be made available for download

outside of the normal update system.

6) We will not own your data and will continue to publish an XML file +

DTD for all eagle file types.

7) We will expand the EAGLE API (coming soon-ish) to ensure users have

access to EAGLE's datamodel via Javascript, Node, etc., to ensure a pipe

out of EAGLE is easy to implement.

8) We will continue to make all legacy and new versions available for

download.

9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of EAGLE

with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support

implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get

this right just yet, but it's coming).

10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and

ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.

 

I know that's a mouthful but I wanted to be sure and stress that we're

trying really hard to make this work in a way that works for the user. My

background is as an engineer and I live in this community in a real way

(not as some passive marketing ***), thus I'm hoping that having built

consumer products, I'm covering many of the bases with this strategy.

(And believe me it hurts when my friends call me out and tell me I'm

squeezing

them or locking away their data or that I just dont "get" it.)  Still, I'm

sure there'll be gaps. Some are unavoidable, some perhaps just oversights

on our part.

 

What I'd love is if you all could, in a constructive way, look thru that

list and let me know whether you think there's more than you already knew

today (which means I needed to get onto the forums and discuss this in

greater detail) and also, what you think about some of these items as a

way forward (although perhaps suboptimal...are they meaningful?).

 

I really DO value your feedback and I can assure you, I'm working my tail

off to make sure we demonstrate value to users like yourself and others

who have shown such an obvious passion for the product. It's not easy to

be parsimonious and also explain the "whole" view, so this is an email I

may I have sent in various forms to different people and it's all changed

a little each time as I go thru it, just to ensure I make the salient

points.

 

 

I didn't want to send a half-hearted reply widely for fear I end up under

the microscope with every troll in Trollville pushing their agenda with my

words.   But this is where we're at and I can tell you, that we will

continue with subscription as we move forward, though we are making

attempts to be concessionary and meet the community half way.

 

Thank you.

 

Best regards,

 

Matt

One thing missing from your post is anything about platform support.

Presumably Autodesk will support Windows, but how about Mac and Linux moving

forward? Jorge has given some assurances there, but it would be nice to see

it on your list as well. Integration with other Autocad products would be

nice, but is only viable for me if those products will run on my Linux

workstation.

Bob

On 31.01.2017 06:55, Matt Berggren wrote:

1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection the

first time you open it.

It would be a start if it doesn't need to connect to internet at all.

It's a big no-no for many users. You can gather download statistics by

making it obligatory to fill in a form on the webpage before one can

download the installer.

2) The free version should open files of any size and layer count and allow

you to place NEW objects anywhere within the extents of the free version.

If that aimes on "maintanance" of existing projects, you can bet the

change to be made to the PCB is in the corner that is not covered in the

"free" routing area. How about layer restriction.

I guess this is of no help.

3) The free version should allow you to output files (gerber, PDF, NCDrill,

etc) of any size or layer count, regardless of the license you have.

Thats what it did all the time, so no big news.

4) Any paid license should automatically roll over to the free version

if/when your license lapses.  (working on this)

Ok. Still say licenses should not expire, but I guess the promise you

made half year ago regarding perpetual licenses is void anyhow.

5) Every version of the free software will be made available for download

outside of the normal update system.

Was like this before, so also no big news.

6) We will not own your data and will continue to publish an XML file + DTD

for all eagle file types.

Was like this since V6 I guess, so also doesn't impress me much.

7) We will expand the EAGLE API (coming soon-ish) to ensure users have

access to EAGLE's datamodel via Javascript, Node, etc., to ensure a pipe

out of EAGLE is easy to implement.

I guess adding some features to the ULP will be enough. You should

rather work on more important features like a push and shove router and

online DRC checking which is asked for since years...

8) We will continue to make all

legacy and new versions available for

download.

I guess that is the same as number 5)

9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of EAGLE

with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support

implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get

this right just yet, but it's coming).

Let me get this straight: That means if I get a one month subscription I

get a perpetual license for V7.7 of the same feature set for free? I

guess you just won 10000 new EAGLE V7.7 users.

10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and

ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.

Sounds great, especially regarding 9)

Markus

Am 31.01.2017 um 06:55 schrieb Matt Berggren:

That being said, all of our tools are subscription ...

..., this was a decision that

was made before my time... Still, I support it.

So, by saying "it's not going subscription" you were intentionally

misleading us, you already knew the opposite?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

I honestly believe these discussions lead nowhere, they're going to what they want anyway. And yes of course it's about the money, and no they really really really DON'T care.

Tip: talk to oracle, they can give you some more pointers. new features are questionable, reasoning too, Too bad, i liked eagle but for me it really went down the drain after 7.4.0.

Look we have a new feature...... "Nag screen".

Didn't want it either but it was the best we could do.

Was (half? i forgot) a day of work..... Well spent!

Don't know if it's a brain-eating virus, don't know if they've been lobotomized, and don't care anymore.

Hope they read it, hope the new subscription scheme fails miserably.

I'll find a competing product, without questionable features, without subscription, without phoning home.

And i'll happily accept the learning curve and move on.

Heck, if i'm on vacation i'll drive by their window, holding a copy of the competing product and waving happily :-)

Eagle, R.I.P.

Be it open source or proprietary software, be it a perfect tool free of

flaws or missing features, or an old-fashioned cumbersome piece of code;

doing designs on which my reputation, my income and my clients depend

and for which I must be able to answer for / modify them in a decade

from now;

for this I do need tools I own and I can continue to use unchanged, or

backup and reinstall, or freeze together with the design data (and OS

and machine if necessary), indefinitely and without any reliance on the

support / goodwill / future payment / bare existence of outside parties.

So, renting such software is unacceptable for me.  Period.

So, I will keep the existing perpetual Eagle V7 licenses (regretting the

money spent for the upgrade from V6) and go looking for a suitable

replacement over the next 1-2 years.  I'm sorry about Eagle, liked and

used it for decades, but such is life.

Hans

On 31/01/17 08:01, Robert Johnson wrote:

Integration with other Autocad products would be

nice,

Unfortunately it's one of the things that most strongly brings back

memories...

Many years ago I used a CASE toolset (software engineering tools) from

well-known PCB CAD specialist Mentor Graphics. They had bought up a

small company who produced a slightly obscure but serviceable CASE

toolset, intending to spread their market presence into that aspect of

the overall product design cycle. They constantly touted their

forthcoming integration with their PCB tools (which we already used for

our hardware design) and our management chose Mentor's CASE tool for

exactly that reason. Even though the tools were not as good as the

Yourdon tool, and nowhere near as widely known and supported as the

Teamwork offering. Guess what? The integration never happened. Neither

did any of the bug fixes they kept promising "in version 8" (yes, we

were on V7 of the tool). In fact, there never was a version 8. Mentor

abandoned the product, along with any plans to compete in that market.

Now don't get me wrong, Eagle is a far better product than Mentor CASE

ever was. I just keep getting these flashbacks, is all.

technolomaniac wrote on Tue, 31 January 2017 00:54

9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of

EAGLE with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support

implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get

this right just yet, but it's coming).

Will this be a perpetual license like version 7 is now?  Or, do you mean I

would have to rent your regular newer Eagle, and then I get the right to

run version 7 only as long as I keep paying the subscription?

On a different but related topic, is version 7 still available today as a

perpetual license for a one-time fixed cost?

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.