EAGLE License Recommendat ion

Hi James, et. Al --

I've sent a number of variations of this email over the last few days, so

let me share it and solicit people's feedback.  This is some of what

we're doing to make this model a bit more user-friendly and I want to be

clear, there is an eagerness to get this right, whilst still ensuring we

hit our objectives.  Constructive comments are welcome.

Firstly, thank you for your email and insights; it's clear that you've

thought deeply about this and I appreciate your honest, unfiltered

feedback. I've watched and responded on the various forums where I felt it

might help but the response means we can't hit every post, unfortunately.

The subscription debate is a tough one for sure, and one we didn't take

lightly, I can assure you. We toiled for some time along with the support

team and the development group to decide just when to make the move. To be

sure, it doesn't sit well right now with some folks, however let me try and

give you some context for "why?" we made the decision and what capabilities

the tools already provides (or we're working on) to ensure you have lasting

SW to work with yourdata...

Firstly, from the outset we knew we've wanted to integrate EAGLE's

capabilities with MCAD, MFG, Cutting (CAM), etc to provide something far in

excess of any 'ECAD<>MCAD' solution on the market. After all, this is a

deep part of Autodesk's history and the value we bring to the table, and

the company has been centered around 3D CAD, even when done in 2D (for

example Autocad) for 25+ years. Thus, we have been looking long and hard at

what it takes to build 'whole products' and this acquisition of an

electronics solution marks just the beginning of a process that'll take us

in some wild directions. That being said, we are working on this and will

continue, hybridizing EAGLE's schematic and PCB capabilities with an MCAD +

MFG workflow that we hope will prove second-to-none.

That being said, all of our tools are subscription and with me having been

a relatively new addition to Autodesk (I ran product at Supplyframe which

owns Hackaday and 15 years w/Altium before that), this was a decision that

was made before my time... Still, I support it. (Not just being a lemming,

I support this 100%.) The argument / debate is largely about making tools

available if/when you need them and providing a continuous stream of

updates / value that's achievable when you consistent revenue stream to

fund R&D. It's a curious model for ECAD, to be sure, however it doesn't

come without us taking a huge hit in those first few years!  (We lose

substantial annual revenue as we move customers over, as you might

imagine.) 

Now to be sure, subscription has the potential for revenue 'upside', but I

want to be 100% clear: even if I doubled EAGLE's revenue tomorrow, I

wouldn't move the Autodesk needle even ½ of 1%. At a ~$17B market cap,

EAGLE's revenue is not why we acquired it and we are not the evil overlords

come down to squeeze every last cent out of EAGLE's most loyal users (it

was my decision to make, and I wasn't focused on the incremental revenue).

What motivated the acquisition were really two things: 1) the core

capabilities on which we could build what we're endeavoring to build and 2)

the community. Now of course the latter (at least on public forums)

probably appears frustrated at the moment  I assure you, it stresses me out

too (nobody is losing more sleep than me over the change!)  but truth be

told, the vast majority of EAGLE users we not inclined to upgrade to the

latest and greatest version. Why? Perhaps because they never felt they were

getting enough value, version to version, for this to make sense?

Regardless of the reason, the bulk of EAGLE users are on v5 or v6...Not v7.

Whether we like it or not, I have to operate on the facts.

So with all of that in mind, we want a license model which aligns to the

larger Autodesk so we can integrate EAGLE (in a hard way...not a "passing

files back and forth" way) into Autodesk's larger platform, which is both

subscription and thriving.  So the question was: when to rip off the band

aid? And what could we do to make it hurt a little less.

With regard to that last item, here's what we've settled on thus far for

ensuring you have legacy SW and versions and data available to you:

1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection the

first time you open it.

2) The free version should open files of any size and layer count and allow

you to place NEW objects anywhere within the extents of the free version.

3) The free version should allow you to output files (gerber, PDF, NCDrill,

etc) of any size or layer count, regardless of the license you have.

4) Any paid license should automatically roll over to the free version

if/when your license lapses.  (working on this)

5) Every version of the free software will be made available for download

outside of the normal update system.

6) We will not own your data and will continue to publish an XML file + DTD

for all eagle file types.

7) We will expand the EAGLE API (coming soon-ish) to ensure users have

access to EAGLE's datamodel via Javascript, Node, etc., to ensure a pipe

out of EAGLE is easy to implement.

8) We will continue to make all legacy and new versions available for

download.

9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of EAGLE

with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support

implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get

this right just yet, but it's coming).

10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and

ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.

I know that's a mouthful but I wanted to be sure and stress that we're

trying really hard to make this work in a way that works for the user. My

background is as an engineer and I live in this community in a real way

(not as some passive marketing ***), thus I'm hoping that having built

consumer products, I'm covering many of the bases with this strategy.  (And

believe me it hurts when my friends call me out and tell me I'm squeezing

them or locking away their data or that I just dont "get" it.)  Still, I'm

sure there'll be gaps. Some are unavoidable, some perhaps just oversights

on our part.

What I'd love is if you all could, in a constructive way, look thru that

list and let me know whether you think there's more than you already knew

today (which means I needed to get onto the forums and discuss this in

greater detail) and also, what you think about some of these items as a way

forward (although perhaps suboptimal...are they meaningful?).

I really DO value your feedback and I can assure you, I'm working my tail

off to make sure we demonstrate value to users like yourself and others who

have shown such an obvious passion for the product. It's not easy to be

parsimonious and also explain the "whole" view, so this is an email I may I

have sent in various forms to different people and it's all changed a

little each time as I go thru it, just to ensure I make the salient points.

I didn't want to send a half-hearted reply widely for fear I end up under

the microscope with every troll in Trollville pushing their agenda with my

words.   But this is where we're at and I can tell you, that we will

continue with subscription as we move forward, though we are making

attempts to be concessionary and meet the community half way.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Matt

--

I solve problems.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Am 31.01.2017 um 06:55 schrieb Matt Berggren:

That being said, all of our tools are subscription ...

..., this was a decision that

was made before my time... Still, I support it.

So, by saying "it's not going subscription" you were intentionally

misleading us, you already knew the opposite?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Am 31.01.2017 um 06:55 schrieb Matt Berggren:

That being said, all of our tools are subscription ...

..., this was a decision that

was made before my time... Still, I support it.

So, by saying "it's not going subscription" you were intentionally

misleading us, you already knew the opposite?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

I honestly believe these discussions lead nowhere, they're going to what they want anyway. And yes of course it's about the money, and no they really really really DON'T care.

Tip: talk to oracle, they can give you some more pointers. new features are questionable, reasoning too, Too bad, i liked eagle but for me it really went down the drain after 7.4.0.

Look we have a new feature...... "Nag screen".

Didn't want it either but it was the best we could do.

Was (half? i forgot) a day of work..... Well spent!

Don't know if it's a brain-eating virus, don't know if they've been lobotomized, and don't care anymore.

Hope they read it, hope the new subscription scheme fails miserably.

I'll find a competing product, without questionable features, without subscription, without phoning home.

And i'll happily accept the learning curve and move on.

Heck, if i'm on vacation i'll drive by their window, holding a copy of the competing product and waving happily :-)

Eagle, R.I.P.

It didnt go to subs at the time of acq and with the new version, we decided

to go this route.  Did you have any feedback on the post or you were just

trolling? 

--

I solve problems.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Let's take a little stroll down memory lane shall we?

https://www.element14.com/community/message/166900/l/eagle-version-75-released#166900

There were several sound arguments made, several times, about half implemented features, the lack of resources and introducing a nice nag screen which should have been an absolute no-go in many people's opinions. not only in this little thread... just chose this one to show you what i think is flawed reasoning from your side.

you did what you wanted anyway and really... the only answers were, "well, we did it this way. it's the best we could and we think we're right"

i'm reading the same here. i read well defined arguments, presented in a very nice and clear matter. and the nice answer you have to that is generally "we're going this way anyway"

It may be a fact that many users didn't upgrade to version 7, you may blindly use that fact to shove a subscription down peoples throat which is more expensive than you claimed it to be.

You could also ask yourself: Where did we go wrong in version 7 that people don't use it? i also find it very hard to believe you don't know the reasoning you use is not entirely true.

does this discussion have a point? I just honestly said: "I believe not because they'll (you) do what they (you) want anyway". True, the packaging of that message is not nice, but the message itself is perfectly clear.

We can have a long discussion about the subject "did eagle go down the drain?". For me... it did. Ad- nag- or crippleware is just morally not done. Especially if you claim to be low on resources and next set a developer to create adware and have the guts to present this as a feature.

There are several best practices. itil, bisl, lean, whichever you choose...

one thing they all agree on is the following point: it's all about customer perception. that perception wasn't great, it sure didn't get any better.

if that's trolling, then fine. you may call me a troll. it does not change my belief that you have effectively killed eagle, nor that you'll do as you please anyway.

When someone has posts lacking detail beyond the snarky "we hate you" bent, is that trolling?  Yup.  But it's incited a more meaningful, actionable reply so let's upack this a bit more and I promise it ends on a high note...

Autodesk isn't Premier Farnell.  We didn't have a hand in anything done prior to the acquisition (7.5, 7.0, 6.1, whathaveyou...) and our intent post acq is a good one.  We are improving routing, improving reuse, improving hierarchy, adding true ECAD<>MCAD support, better file handling, revision management, library tools, etc.  This is coming with subscription.  If you need these tools, you are welcome to subscribe. 

Perpetual licensing is not our business model moving forward and version 8 aligns with that model, perhaps a little sooner than any of us expected.  But we weren't coy here.  We said it may come and it did.  The cost is consistent with the previous license price and in many cases, the TCO is in fact lower.  I wont debate this point and if the value of EAGLE's capabilities we're adding doesn't eclipse the need to subscribe, then perhaps we've failed (i.e. we didnt deliver) or perhaps the product isn't what's best for you.  Believe me, I get that.

WRT to nag-ware, ad-ware, etc; we removed that ad ware post acq.  We also added a free export to MCAD (not an additional service), a better interface to mfg, the first major pass at design reuse, improvements in routing, better visualization of missed connections in schematic, renamed a wire a line (like it should have been for 26 years), cleaned up a number of selection issues including modal versus non-modal behavior, etc.  This is all something you'd find in the tool (free or paid) were you to open it.  In fact, much was added in 7.7.

So in fact, we are making good on our promises and the notion of EAGLE as a cash-cow is a mischaracterization that anyone without knowledge of the business could be forgiven for making. 

I would likewise argue that it isn't about "customer perception" at all as you've stated.  It's about customer success in using your tool.  If you build a better tool, able to do more, which makes them more effective and ensures they get to see their kid's little league game on the weekends or gets them home in time for dinner with their spouse, then you win.  If I build a tool only to serve perception, that's a slippery slope toward vaporware. 

We need to build features that make design better, more efficient and less error prone.  This is why we said "Routing!" when we first started working on the tool.  Obstacle avoidance, better rules, better trace handling, push and shove (driven by those rules), are all in the cards.  When will we deliver on those?  As soon as we humanly can.   The ECAD<>MCAD tools are improving as well.  This is a path toward total integration.  (As I said, we didn't call the product Fusion for nothing so if I'm leaking anything by sharing this, then I guess we didn't do a great job of hiding this in the first place!) 

If you dont need any of this, then I appreciate that you may not be our target customer.  And that's ok.  They can't all be zingers!  And there's no captive audiences here.  But if it's cool to you to see EAGLE mature to compete on the same footing as the big boys, but perhaps leaner, cleaner & less expensive; then let's discuss priorities around this and make sure we get to the right finish line(s) first.

We are putting our money where our mouth is and we welcome you to try it out and come along for the ride.  I'd be super happy if in 6 months you said: "look at that!  I never knew it'd be able to do that!".   For us, that's the only measure of a win.  That and making it affordable.  And we have started down the path toward both.  Of course, you're forgiven if you feel like we're asking you to bet on something which isn't fully baked.  We get that.  Trust me, I get that.  But it'll happen.  And when it does...it'll be glorious and you'll be proud to have a license. 

Best regards,

Matt

p.s. and truly, thanks for a proper reply with some meat on it.  I need something more to reply to or I too, like any other human, show my humanity.