EAGLE License Recommendat ion

Hi James, et. Al --

I've sent a number of variations of this email over the last few days, so

let me share it and solicit people's feedback.  This is some of what

we're doing to make this model a bit more user-friendly and I want to be

clear, there is an eagerness to get this right, whilst still ensuring we

hit our objectives.  Constructive comments are welcome.

Firstly, thank you for your email and insights; it's clear that you've

thought deeply about this and I appreciate your honest, unfiltered

feedback. I've watched and responded on the various forums where I felt it

might help but the response means we can't hit every post, unfortunately.

The subscription debate is a tough one for sure, and one we didn't take

lightly, I can assure you. We toiled for some time along with the support

team and the development group to decide just when to make the move. To be

sure, it doesn't sit well right now with some folks, however let me try and

give you some context for "why?" we made the decision and what capabilities

the tools already provides (or we're working on) to ensure you have lasting

SW to work with yourdata...

Firstly, from the outset we knew we've wanted to integrate EAGLE's

capabilities with MCAD, MFG, Cutting (CAM), etc to provide something far in

excess of any 'ECAD<>MCAD' solution on the market. After all, this is a

deep part of Autodesk's history and the value we bring to the table, and

the company has been centered around 3D CAD, even when done in 2D (for

example Autocad) for 25+ years. Thus, we have been looking long and hard at

what it takes to build 'whole products' and this acquisition of an

electronics solution marks just the beginning of a process that'll take us

in some wild directions. That being said, we are working on this and will

continue, hybridizing EAGLE's schematic and PCB capabilities with an MCAD +

MFG workflow that we hope will prove second-to-none.

That being said, all of our tools are subscription and with me having been

a relatively new addition to Autodesk (I ran product at Supplyframe which

owns Hackaday and 15 years w/Altium before that), this was a decision that

was made before my time... Still, I support it. (Not just being a lemming,

I support this 100%.) The argument / debate is largely about making tools

available if/when you need them and providing a continuous stream of

updates / value that's achievable when you consistent revenue stream to

fund R&D. It's a curious model for ECAD, to be sure, however it doesn't

come without us taking a huge hit in those first few years!  (We lose

substantial annual revenue as we move customers over, as you might

imagine.) 

Now to be sure, subscription has the potential for revenue 'upside', but I

want to be 100% clear: even if I doubled EAGLE's revenue tomorrow, I

wouldn't move the Autodesk needle even ½ of 1%. At a ~$17B market cap,

EAGLE's revenue is not why we acquired it and we are not the evil overlords

come down to squeeze every last cent out of EAGLE's most loyal users (it

was my decision to make, and I wasn't focused on the incremental revenue).

What motivated the acquisition were really two things: 1) the core

capabilities on which we could build what we're endeavoring to build and 2)

the community. Now of course the latter (at least on public forums)

probably appears frustrated at the moment  I assure you, it stresses me out

too (nobody is losing more sleep than me over the change!)  but truth be

told, the vast majority of EAGLE users we not inclined to upgrade to the

latest and greatest version. Why? Perhaps because they never felt they were

getting enough value, version to version, for this to make sense?

Regardless of the reason, the bulk of EAGLE users are on v5 or v6...Not v7.

Whether we like it or not, I have to operate on the facts.

So with all of that in mind, we want a license model which aligns to the

larger Autodesk so we can integrate EAGLE (in a hard way...not a "passing

files back and forth" way) into Autodesk's larger platform, which is both

subscription and thriving.  So the question was: when to rip off the band

aid? And what could we do to make it hurt a little less.

With regard to that last item, here's what we've settled on thus far for

ensuring you have legacy SW and versions and data available to you:

1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection the

first time you open it.

2) The free version should open files of any size and layer count and allow

you to place NEW objects anywhere within the extents of the free version.

3) The free version should allow you to output files (gerber, PDF, NCDrill,

etc) of any size or layer count, regardless of the license you have.

4) Any paid license should automatically roll over to the free version

if/when your license lapses.  (working on this)

5) Every version of the free software will be made available for download

outside of the normal update system.

6) We will not own your data and will continue to publish an XML file + DTD

for all eagle file types.

7) We will expand the EAGLE API (coming soon-ish) to ensure users have

access to EAGLE's datamodel via Javascript, Node, etc., to ensure a pipe

out of EAGLE is easy to implement.

8) We will continue to make all legacy and new versions available for

download.

9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of EAGLE

with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support

implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get

this right just yet, but it's coming).

10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and

ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.

I know that's a mouthful but I wanted to be sure and stress that we're

trying really hard to make this work in a way that works for the user. My

background is as an engineer and I live in this community in a real way

(not as some passive marketing ***), thus I'm hoping that having built

consumer products, I'm covering many of the bases with this strategy.  (And

believe me it hurts when my friends call me out and tell me I'm squeezing

them or locking away their data or that I just dont "get" it.)  Still, I'm

sure there'll be gaps. Some are unavoidable, some perhaps just oversights

on our part.

What I'd love is if you all could, in a constructive way, look thru that

list and let me know whether you think there's more than you already knew

today (which means I needed to get onto the forums and discuss this in

greater detail) and also, what you think about some of these items as a way

forward (although perhaps suboptimal...are they meaningful?).

I really DO value your feedback and I can assure you, I'm working my tail

off to make sure we demonstrate value to users like yourself and others who

have shown such an obvious passion for the product. It's not easy to be

parsimonious and also explain the "whole" view, so this is an email I may I

have sent in various forms to different people and it's all changed a

little each time as I go thru it, just to ensure I make the salient points.

I didn't want to send a half-hearted reply widely for fear I end up under

the microscope with every troll in Trollville pushing their agenda with my

words.   But this is where we're at and I can tell you, that we will

continue with subscription as we move forward, though we are making

attempts to be concessionary and meet the community half way.

Thank you.

Best regards,

Matt

--

I solve problems.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

technolomaniac wrote on Tue, 31 January 2017 05:54

Hi James, et. Al --

 

I've sent a number of variations of this email over the last few days,

so let me share it and solicit people's feedback.  This is some of what

we're doing to make this model a bit more user-friendly and I want to be

clear, there is an eagerness to get this right, whilst still ensuring we

hit our objectives.  Constructive comments are welcome.

 

Firstly, thank you for your email and insights; it's clear that you've

thought deeply about this and I appreciate your honest, unfiltered

feedback. I've watched and responded on the various forums where I felt

it might help but the response means we can't hit every post,

unfortunately.

 

The subscription debate is a tough one for sure, and one we didn't take

lightly, I can assure you. We toiled for some time along with the support

team and the development group to decide just when to make the move. To

be sure, it doesn't sit well right now with some folks, however let me

try and give you some context for "why?" we made the decision and what

capabilities the tools already provides (or we're working on) to ensure

you have lasting SW to work with yourdata...

 

Firstly, from the outset we knew we've wanted to integrate EAGLE's

capabilities with MCAD, MFG, Cutting (CAM), etc to provide something far

in excess of any 'ECAD<>MCAD' solution on the market. After all, this is

a deep part of Autodesk's history and the value we bring to the table,

and the company has been centered around 3D CAD, even when done in 2D

(for example Autocad) for 25+ years. Thus, we have been looking long and

hard at what it takes to build 'whole products' and this acquisition of

an electronics solution marks just the beginning of a process that'll

take us in some wild directions. That being said, we are working on this

and will continue, hybridizing EAGLE's schematic and PCB capabilities

with an MCAD + MFG workflow that we hope will prove second-to-none.

 

That being said, all of our tools are subscription and with me having

been a relatively new addition to Autodesk (I ran product at Supplyframe

which owns Hackaday and 15 years w/Altium before that), this was a

decision that was made before my time... Still, I support it. (Not just

being a lemming, I support this 100%.) The argument / debate is largely

about making tools available if/when you need them and providing a

continuous stream of updates / value that's achievable when you

consistent revenue stream to fund R&D. It's a curious model for ECAD, to

be sure, however it doesn't come without us taking a huge hit in those

first few years!  (We lose substantial annual revenue as we move

customers over, as you might imagine.) 

 

Now to be sure, subscription has the potential for revenue 'upside',

but I want to be 100% clear: even if I doubled EAGLE's revenue tomorrow,

I wouldn't move the Autodesk needle even ½ of 1%. At a ~$17B market cap,

EAGLE's revenue is not why we acquired it and we are not the evil

overlords come down to squeeze every last cent out of EAGLE's most loyal

users (it was my decision to make, and I wasn't focused on the

incremental revenue).

 

What motivated the acquisition were really two things: 1) the core

capabilities on which we could build what we're endeavoring to build and

2) the community. Now of course the latter (at least on public forums)

probably appears frustrated at the moment  I assure you, it stresses me

out too (nobody is losing more sleep than me over the change!)  but truth

be told, the vast majority of EAGLE users we not inclined to upgrade to

the latest and greatest version. Why? Perhaps because they never felt

they were getting enough value, version to version, for this to make

sense?  Regardless of the reason, the bulk of EAGLE users are on v5 or

v6...Not v7.  Whether we like it or not, I have to operate on the facts.

 

So with all of that in mind, we want a license model which aligns to

the larger Autodesk so we can integrate EAGLE (in a hard way...not a

"passing files back and forth" way) into Autodesk's larger platform,

which is both subscription and thriving.  So the question was: when to

rip off the band aid? And what could we do to make it hurt a little

less.

 

With regard to that last item, here's what we've settled on thus far

for ensuring you have legacy SW and versions and data available to you:

 

1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection

the first time you open it.

2) The free version should open files of any size and layer count and

allow you to place NEW objects anywhere within the extents of the free

version.

3) The free version should allow you to output files (gerber, PDF,

NCDrill, etc) of any size or layer count, regardless of the license you

have.

4) Any paid license should automatically roll over to the free version

if/when your license lapses.  (working on this)

5) Every version of the free software will be made available for

download outside of the normal update system.

6) We will not own your data and will continue to publish an XML file +

DTD for all eagle file types.

7) We will expand the EAGLE API (coming soon-ish) to ensure users have

access to EAGLE's datamodel via Javascript, Node, etc., to ensure a pipe

out of EAGLE is easy to implement.

8) We will continue to make all legacy and new versions available for

download.

9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of

EAGLE with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support

implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get

this right just yet, but it's coming).

10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and

ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.

 

I know that's a mouthful but I wanted to be sure and stress that we're

trying really hard to make this work in a way that works for the user. My

background is as an engineer and I live in this community in a real way

(not as some passive marketing ***), thus I'm hoping that having

built consumer products, I'm covering many of the bases with this

strategy.  (And believe me it hurts when my friends call me out and tell

me I'm squeezing them or locking away their data or that I just dont

"get" it.)  Still, I'm sure there'll be gaps. Some are unavoidable, some

perhaps just oversights on our part.

 

What I'd love is if you all could, in a constructive way, look thru

that list and let me know whether you think there's more than you already

knew today (which means I needed to get onto the forums and discuss this

in greater detail) and also, what you think about some of these items as

a way forward (although perhaps suboptimal...are they meaningful?).

 

I really DO value your feedback and I can assure you, I'm working my

tail off to make sure we demonstrate value to users like yourself and

others who have shown such an obvious passion for the product. It's not

easy to be parsimonious and also explain the "whole" view, so this is an

email I may I have sent in various forms to different people and it's all

changed a little each time as I go thru it, just to ensure I make the

salient points.

 

I didn't want to send a half-hearted reply widely for fear I end up

under the microscope with every troll in Trollville pushing their agenda

with my words.   But this is where we're at and I can tell you, that we

will continue with subscription as we move forward, though we are making

attempts to be concessionary and meet the community half way.

Thanks Matt,  I appreciate the full response.  It's obviously nuanced with

a lot of considerations on many sides.

And sorry for the delay.  I've been a bit busy, plus I wanted to make sure

that I digested what you were trying to say.

No one is saying that EAGLE shouldn't charge money for using the software,

we all recognize the link that there should be between revenue and future

development.  However, this is now the second major revision that has been

released where the large majority of design effort has been into licensing

schemes that add zero value to the user.  Sure, they may have import to

the Farnell/Autodesk.  But the company exists to serve its customers, not

the other way around.

I'm not interested in "access to EAGLE's datamodel via Javascript, Node,

etc, ...".  Maybe others are and maybe this is the piping you need to

integrate with your MCAD tools in Autodesk.  But this is piping, not

features.

Instead of going through your response line by line, let me enumerate some

requirements for professional use of EAGLE and then I'll see how your

suggestion stacks up.  These are situations that I don't think were

addressed before:

A. Work with Multiple Versions of EAGLE at the Same Time

This is an absolute must for a design bureau:  The main issues here:

1) license requirements that a user delete previous versions of EAGLE

within a certain number of days

2) being able to service customers with various versions of EAGLE

And for background, it must be understood that CAD professionals don't just

upgrade their tools for the latest version without a lot of consideration

and testing.  While new versions may mean new functionality, they also are

a risk for new bugs.  And unknown bugs cost professionals money and time

when boards don't come in and work like they are supposed to.

That goes for the version that a design bureau would use internally.  It

also goes applies to clients, who often go through their own internal

version of the same decision.  Clients can also have other tools and

processes built around particular versions of EAGLE and just jumping to a

new version of EAGLE can sometimes break those.

ANALYSIS:

I don't see anything in your response that addresses the license terms that

we need to delete older versions of EAGLE.  You have stated in another post

that this wouldn't effect any versions before V8 (though I'm not sure that

is true since Autodesk bought CadSoft and likely acquired all their assets

and liabilities too, so while you say it doesn't apply I'm not sure

Autodesk lawyers would agree, especially when Autodesk accountants discover

how many licenses this might apply to if no one upgrades to V8).

The ability to save out in older formats is helpful and a feature I have

advocated for over a decade.

B. Guarantee Being Able to Edit My Data in Native Version of EAGLE a Decade

or Two in the Future

If I have to make a change to a real system in the future I need to be able

to do it with the exact version of EAGLE that it was made with e.g. V6.5,

V8.1, etc.

If I have to load the data into a different version of EAGLE then we have

the introduction of potential sources of error:

1) bug in converting data file from old version to new version

2) bug in new program effecting any part of the design (polygons fill

differently, ends of copper wires have different shapes, more/less

resolution on unit conversion, ....).

3) but in new program in generating output files

When you're dealing with a very old design, there is a lot of detail that

you no longer have in the short-term memory.  So you want to make sure that

only what you intend to change changes.  Using a different version of

software introduces other variables and the more variables you have the

more work it is to do this and to verify the design.  And the more

time/cost it takes to do the job.

And remember, we design safety critical systems with EAGLE.  This is no

toy, it is used for Professional work.  So this needs to be taken

seriously.

ANALYSIS:

I don't see anything in your statement that addresses this directly.  We

have the issue of deleting previous versions along with reliance on

internet connection to Autodesk servers that have no obligations to

continue to operate.

C. Running EAGLE No Matter What Externally Goes Wrong

This is basically the issue around EAGLE stopping to work after 14 days if

it can't call home.  Here is a list of things that could keep me from being

able to use EAGLE:

copper communication line gets cut to my house, I live in the country,

there aren't many other optionsDDOS attack on my ISP, internet is

downcorporate firewall blocks EAGLEAutodesk decides that EAGLE isn't

profitable and maintaining server is losing money, so they shut it downmy

country (say China) decides that my packets can't leave country to

Autodesk's serversI'm in a location with no internet access (secure

facility, wilderness, ...)....

Some of the things above could be temporary, but not necessarily. The point

is, I have to be able to work no matter what happens.  There are simply too

many things that can go wrong and cut me off from using EAGLE V8

currently.

ANALYSIS:  I don't see anything here that addresses this directly.  I

suppose being able to save out in old version and then load it up could

work.  But V8 has already created a structure that isn't backward

compatible with the reusable modules, and I expect more of this in the

future.  So there doesn't seem to be any way you can guarantee that this

method would be error-free and wouldn't just end up causing me more work.

My experience with this is that it might work for the most simple case, but

boards I design are rarely the simple case.

You've also suggesting to maintain the persistent license model for (older

versions of) EAGLE in PARALLEL with the new subscription model!  I thought

the old system was inefficient and cost lots of support turmoil--now you

have all of that and the subscription issues.

D. Working within the Legal License Constraints

Any professional design house wants to be using legally licensed software.

At least around here, the cost of getting caught with pirated software is

high.  There are many reasons for wanting to be legit, having support being

probably number one on that list.

This argument that you can somehow fall back to the free, non-commercial

licence in the future is non-sense.  By saying that, you are essentially

condoning using EAGLE outside of the legal terms.  If someone is going to

do that (on your recommendation) then they might as well just crack EAGLE

Ultimate and be done with it.  Both are outside of using EAGLE according

the license.  So why pay ever.

This is a nonsense argument and I'm surprised it hasn't been detected by

your team of lawyers.

ANALYSIS:

This is a fail.

The suggestion to use the Free, non-commercial license is laughable for any

business.  You are asking us to use your software illegally.

CONCLUSION:

I don't see anything here that allows a professional organisation any sort

of comfort with the licensing model.  There have been some small steps made

but the root problems are still in place.

Autodesk has made the same mistake that Farnell did:  They pushed out a

major licensing change without actually asking the people who would have to

pay for it.

I have used EAGLE for 2 decades and distributed EAGLE for one decade, so I

know the market.  Would it really have hurt Autodesk to reach out to a few

of us in the EAGLE community to consult to make sure you got it right?  Ed

and Jorge could have given you 5-10 contacts right off the top of their

heads.  I learned about Farnell's license attempt the day it came out (even

as a distributor I didn't get any advanced notice) and I told them that day

that it was going to be a fail.  At least Farnell had the sense to back

down and revert.

I'm not saying that Autodesk has to revert to exactly the way things

were.  BUT THE ISSUES ABOVE ARE REAL and no amount of hand waving or "trust

us" is going to make them go away.  Many, many businesses that make money

using EAGLE are not going to commit to this sort of scheme.

New Proposal

You didn't specifically address why my initial proposal wouldn't work.

Having some time to contemplate, I realize one deficiency from Autodesk's

point of view:  With my previous recommendation, one could purchase a one

month subscription, terminate the subscription, and then get lifetime use

of that software forever.  So obviously that is likely not looked upon

favourably by Autodesk, though I'd wish they'd just come out and say that.

If someone purchases a two-year license they get a perpetual license.  When

their two-years are up, if they continue to subscribe (monthly) they

continue to get updates and support.  If they choose to not subscribe then

the lose both updates and support but the version of EAGLE that was

licensed when they discontinued the subscription will work as a perpetual

license.

Not being connected to the internet would be considered the same thing as

not subscribing.  So for the first 2 years you would not need to connect

and EAGLE would continue to work fine.  After the two years, if

subscription is dropped then the perpetual license kicks in, no need to

connect then either.  You would only need to connect to update and reset

the latest version of EAGLE that your perpetual license would pertain to.

This is good for Autodesk:

- 24 month subscription is better than 1 month -- guaranteed money

- 24 months to get enough new functionality to convince customer to go to

monthly subscription

(As an aside, please don't tell me how monthly subscription money is better

than a lump sum.  If Autodesk can't figure out how to take a lump sum in

one pocket and hand it out internally as if it was a subscription then

maybe they should just get out of business altogether.  Plus you get

interest on that money, so it's even better.)

This is good for customer

- guaranteed, native access to edit data forever with a legit license in

the native, specific version of EAGLE

- being able to walk away after 2 years means that Autodesk has to actually

work to convince you to shell out more money in the future (see last 3+

years where there really wasn't any particular reason to upgrade for most

people)

- it solves all the issues I outline above

You've already committed to a perpetual license in some cases, so this

proposal is the best of both worlds I think.  I don't think there is any

value in creating a system to license V7--that seems like wasted work.

Anyone who wants V7 already has it and new people aren't going to think

that is much of a value, especially as the functionality and compatibility

begins to separate.

I look forward to your response.  If this proposal isn't acceptable, I'd

like to hear why.  I think this is a great "half way" to address the

issues that Autodesk has stated and maintain a usable licensing scheme for

its customers.

Cheers,

James.

--

James Morrison  ~~~  Stratford Digital

http://www.stratforddigital.ca

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

James Morrison wrote on Wed, 01 February 2017 20:41

If someone purchases a two-year license they get a perpetual license.

When their two-years are up, if they continue to subscribe (monthly) they

continue to get updates and support.  If they choose to not subscribe

then the lose both updates and support but the version of EAGLE that was

licensed when they discontinued the subscription will work as a perpetual

license.

I would go for this.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

James Morrison wrote on Wed, 01 February 2017 20:41

If someone purchases a two-year license they get a perpetual license.

When their two-years are up, if they continue to subscribe (monthly) they

continue to get updates and support.  If they choose to not subscribe

then the lose both updates and support but the version of EAGLE that was

licensed when they discontinued the subscription will work as a perpetual

license.

I would go for this.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.