EAGLE GUI (12): Making things easier for new users

Hi,

many thanks for your ideas ! Please see my comments.

On 04/10/13 22:42, Andreas Weidner wrote:

Though the user interface of EAGLE is trimmed for doing things QUICKLY and EFFECTIVELY, the difference between its own

GUI and (de-facto standard) Office-like programs makes it increasingly difficult for 'newbies' to accept the program as

something really useful (as seen in previous posts). With a little bit of time, people see that EAGLE's GUI is not

complete rubbish, but just DIFFERENT, and learn to accept it as useful. But often, the FIRST IMPRESSION counts.

 

In order to loose neither professional long-term users nor potential new customers, CadSoft would be well-advised to try

to connect both worlds (EAGLE and Office).

 

The main points critisised in the forums seem to be

- the lacking possibility to SELECT objects,

- the lacking possibility to DO things with those objects and

- the lacking possibility to GROUP objects.

(Though EAGLE does NOT lack some of the above points and does not NEED the others, this is often the first impression of

new users, so I just leave that uncommented for now)

Sure, we have some weaknesses in this field.

 

The following paragraphs suggest a way how CadSoft might implement ONE additional command to make the first-time user

much more happy than at the moment:

 

1. Prelude A: Make all current commands work properly with either

single objects or groups. This mainly concerns

- MOVE/COPY/INVOKE etc., which do not work with only ONE

(ungrouped) object across sheets,

We have some architectural restrictions here: Generally commands don't work across sheets

unless you operate with groups. I hope we can once overcome this restriction.

- VALUE, which does not work with groups and

- INFO, which does not work for groups, either.

This obviously is quite a bit of work, but it would make the

interface MUCH more logical.

Does it make sense to set/change the VALUE for a whole group ?

Anyway it's only applicable for part instances and elements. And you want to give them all the same value ?

Info for GROUP could be either the 'least common denominator' of all group entities or something like

"group consisting of x Elements, y signals, z vias" and maybe listing those.

2. Prelude B: Make the INFO dialog NON-modal and add the possibility

to anchor it somewhere in a window border. For the current EAGLE

behaviour, that doesn't make too much sense, but the whole thing

becomes useful when reading the next points.

3. Prelude C: Make the GROUP command also accept dragging rectangles

together with CTRL: This would add the selected objects to the

group (or remove them from it).

Are you aware that GROUP actually accepts Ctrl ?

If you haven't defined a rectangle yet you can start with Ctrl-clicking objects.

Ctrl-clicking again deselects the entity. You can even select the parent entity with Shift-Ctrl-click:

Example: Ctrl-click on a net wire add the wire to the group, Shift-Ctrl-click adds the whole net segment.

What is not possible is to add things after you already defined a rectangle/polygon.

The group command automatically terminates. Why ?

The idea was to use GROUP as 'nested' command, like for MOVE (and many others): Click MOVE,

then GROUP to define a group, e.g. by dragging a rectangle.

Then MOVE is still active and with RMB you can click 'MOVE GROUP'.

If you are unhappy that GROUP just finished after you dragged  a rectangle

you can still get to where you want:

Click GROUP again, and now add individual entities with Ctrl-click. The previous group

is still active !

I have the impression it's a better idea to change the existing GROUP a bit:

  - Change the behaviour of click and Ctrl-click.

    The normal click add/removes an entity to selection, Ctrl-click starts defining a polygon.

    This would be much intuitive I think.

  - Keep GROUP active also after having a rectangle/polygon

I have some doubts about the latter because it may disturb people's existing workflow.

4. Add ONE command that is started with a button with a POINTER ARROW

on it. This is what newbies use for 'selecting things'. This

command will be QUITE difficult to implement, because it does

QUITE a lot of things:

a) If the user clicks a point where there is NO object available,

the current group is emptied, and the (non-modal) INFO dialog

shows nothing useful.

b) If the user clicks on an object, this object gets the SOLE

member of a (highlighted) group, and the INFO dialog shows the

usual things (editable, with an 'accept' button or similar).

c) If the user ctrl-clicks an object, this object is added to

or subtracted from the current group.

You need the Ctrl-click now in order to support MOVE with the normal click

if I understand correct.

The INFO dialog shows

only those fields that are available for ALL grouped

objects. If a field is the same for ALL grouped objects,

this field contains the common value, if NOT all objects

agree, the field is left empty or a word like 'several' (or

similar) is shown (checkboxes etc. would need TRISTATE

support). The INFO fields are all editable (therefore,

point 2 is crucial).

d) If the user drags a rectangle beginning at a place where

there is NO object, the command behaves the same as GROUP:

Either a new group is created, or objects are added to or

removed from it. The INFO dialog always stays working.

Up to now, the new command does more or less the same as

GROUP - it just cannot select objects with a polygon. But now

some additional functionality:

e) If the mouse button is pressed on an object from the current

group and the mouse is then dragged, the group is MOVED (as

is the case with nearly all graphics programs). I would

suggest that this movement is triggered by the LEFT mouse

button, even though 'normally', the RIGHT mouse button

would move the group. BUT we want to have Office-like

functionality here, and it should STILL be possible to

rotate and/or mirror the group.

OK, if this should work we'd have to rename GROUP to something like GROUPMOVE or GROUPACTION

f) Double-clicking on an object from a group shows the INFO

dialog (non-modal), even if it wasn't visible previously.

g) When double-clicking on an object NOT in the group, this

object gets the SOLE member of a new group, and the INFO

dialog is made visible.

h) (Ctrl)-right-clicking on an object from the group shows

a local menu based on the GROUP (and not only the clicked

OBJECT as done now).

With this approach, NEW users would have their often-sought

'selecting' method, and even long-time users could do moving

easier than before, because no change between group/move etc.

would be necessary. For SPECIAL wishes like grouping with a

polygon, the 'usual' commands would of course still work

(and even without ANY change).

5. Other thoughts:

a) Since the word GROUP is normally used for PERSISTENT

groups in every graphics program on earth, it MIGHT be

useful to rename GROUP to SELECTION (the old command

name would of course STILL work for compatibility).

b) Currently, the INFO dialog does NOT focus any edit

field after opening (which I always find a nuisance).

In the future, it would be nice if the MOST OBVIOUS

field would be automatically focused:

- In case of all objects of the group containing

the field that was LAST focused, use this.

- In case of NO previous focus, use the field that

the user will most likely want to EDIT. For

components: value, for nets/busses: name, for

wires: width, ...

c) Since the new 'pointer' command does not do ANYTHING

that cannot already be done with other EAGLE commands,

but just allows to use them more quickly (and perhaps

even more intuitively), there would be NO necessity

to include this in the command line syntax. Well,

STARTING the command via the command line would be very

useful, but please NO additional parameters (they would

be too complicated and useless, anyway).

d) Prelude A needs QUITE some thinking about how existing

commands should behave when confronted with groups.

This is NOT difficult programming, though. SOME ideas

for this should already have been mentioned in previous

EAGLE GUI posts of mine (as far as I remember).

 

The above approach would do several things:

- NOT break the current EAGLE workflow (which is much BETTER

than Office-style stuff)

- But ALLOW for Office-like usage for the most-often used

functions like 'selecting', moving and changing parameters,

meaning those functions that new users will most likely

try out first

- WITHOUT having to reprogram the whole of EAGLE, but just

adding ONE (quite complex) command.

- In my opinion, a win-win situation for both newbies and

professionals. The only ones weeping will probably be the

CadSoft programmers - but they are quite definitely the

minority...

We actually like working on EAGLE but have some other major topics.

We'll see what we can do.

Regards,

Walter

 

Andreas Weidner

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

Am 13.04.2013 22:25, schrieb Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de:

We have some architectural restrictions here: Generally commands don't

work across sheets

unless you operate with groups. I hope we can once overcome this

restriction.

Yes, please.

Does it make sense to set/change the VALUE for a whole group ?

Yes. Though it IS possible to use the command line for the infamous

"value 100n", you still need to click on EVERY capacitor. For typical

boards, we have about >50 of those, and ALL on the same sheet. Same

thing with diode matrices and "1N4148" etc.

Changing a group needs some additional user questions in the following

case (I think I already mentioned that sometime, but anyway):

  1. In case ALL grouped objects have been defined with 'VALUE=ON',

     all grouped objects get the new value.

  2. In case at least one grouped object was defined with 'VALUE=OFF',

     the user should be asked something like 'At least one object has

     no user-defineable value. Do you want to change these values, too?'

      - In case of YES, all grouped objects get the new value.

      - In case of NO, only the objects with 'VALUE=ON' get the new

        value, the others NOT.

      - In case of CANCEL, NO objects gets the new value.

  3. All grouped objects that don't HAVE a value are completely ignored.

Anyway it's only applicable for part instances and elements. And you

want to give them all the same value ?

Of course this does not happen THAT often. Making those commands behave

properly with groups is just a function that should be implemented in

order to make the non-modal info dialog work with ALL sorts of selections.

Info for GROUP could be either the 'least common denominator' of all

group entities or something like

"group consisting of x Elements, y signals, z vias" and maybe listing

those.

Implementing ONLY the latter is rather useless - this would NOT make it

possible to change parameters at all. I would like to have BOTH things

shown:

  4. As a heading, show 'No selection' if nothing is 'selected', or

     the object type in case only ONE object type is selected (e.g.

     '1 element' or '3 elements'), or the group information as stated

     by you ('3 elements, 5 signals'). Since this MIGHT get too long,

     it would also be OK to just display ('8 objects'), and NOT list

     them (when selecting MANY objects, a list would be too cumbersome).

  5. Below the heading display (and enable editing) of all parameters

     common to ALL grouped objects.

  6. This obviously would NOT enable the user to drag a 'selection'

     across a sheet and change the value of all capacitors to '100n',

     because not only the capacitors, but also connected NETS would be

     grouped. This is why the VALUE command itself (and other commands

     as well) should properly support groups.

Are you aware that GROUP actually accepts Ctrl ?

Yes. That's why I wrote 'accept dragging rectangles together with CTRL':

At the moment, it's possible EITHER to drag a rectangle OR select SINGLE

objects with CTRL. You cannot ADD rectangular regions to an already

existing group or remove such a region from one. It would be nice if

EAGLE could do it in the way every other graphical vector editor does it...

I have the impression it's a better idea to change the existing GROUP a

bit:

I am NOT talking about a change in the current behaviour of the GROUP

command here. All I wanted is to make it possible to add/subtract

NUMEROUS rectangular regions to/from a group, which is not possible

currently. The 'pointer' command I was talking about would NOT have the

full functionality of GROUP (e.g., no polygon selections), but just a

limited set for a more 'Office-like' feeling.

You need the Ctrl-click now in order to support MOVE with the normal click

if I understand correct.

Again, I am NOT talking about changing the behaviour of EXISTING

commands. All mentioned functionality lies SOLELY in the 'pointer'

command, and does NOT have any impact on others. This means that all the

grouping, moving, deleting, rotating etc. mentioned is NOT done by

activating different commands, but by JUST activating the ONE 'pointer'

command that does all these things automatically, depending on the click

points.

OK, if this should work we'd have to rename GROUP to something like

GROUPMOVE or GROUPACTION

No, no, no! NO existing command needs to be renamed, and the behaviour

of all existing commands stays as always. Keep in mind that ALL

functionality lies in the ONE new 'pointer' command. This adds Office

functionality for the new users, but most experienced users will stay

with the more powerful existing EAGLE commands.

The new 'pointer' command is NOT a way to automatically switch between

the existing commands, but it has the FUNCTIONALITY (well, SOME of it)

of SEVERAL existing commands WITHOUT having to switch between them at all.

Andreas Weidner

On 04/15/13 11:43, Andreas Weidner wrote:

Am 13.04.2013 22:25, schrieb Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de:

We have some architectural restrictions here: Generally commands don't

work across sheets

unless you operate with groups. I hope we can once overcome this

restriction.

 

Yes, please.

 

Does it make sense to set/change the VALUE for a whole group ?

 

Yes. Though it IS possible to use the command line for the infamous

"value 100n", you still need to click on EVERY capacitor. For typical

boards, we have about >50 of those, and ALL on the same sheet. Same

thing with diode matrices and "1N4148" etc.

OK, convinced !

 

Changing a group needs some additional user questions in the following

case (I think I already mentioned that sometime, but anyway):

1. In case ALL grouped objects have been defined with 'VALUE=ON',

    all grouped objects get the new value.

2. In case at least one grouped object was defined with 'VALUE=OFF',

    the user should be asked something like 'At least one object has

    no user-defineable value. Do you want to change these values, too?'

     - In case of YES, all grouped objects get the new value.

     - In case of NO, only the objects with 'VALUE=ON' get the new

       value, the others NOT.

     - In case of CANCEL, NO objects gets the new value.

3. All grouped objects that don't HAVE a value are completely ignored.

OK.

Anyway it's only applicable for part instances and elements. And you

want to give them all the same value ?

 

Of course this does not happen THAT often. Making those commands behave

properly with groups is just a function that should be implemented in

order to make the non-modal info dialog work with ALL sorts of selections.

 

Info for GROUP could be either the 'least common denominator' of all

group entities or something like

"group consisting of x Elements, y signals, z vias" and maybe listing

those.

 

Implementing ONLY the latter is rather useless - this would NOT make it

possible to change parameters at all. I would like to have BOTH things

shown:

4. As a heading, show 'No selection' if nothing is 'selected', or

    the object type in case only ONE object type is selected (e.g.

    '1 element' or '3 elements'), or the group information as stated

    by you ('3 elements, 5 signals'). Since this MIGHT get too long,

    it would also be OK to just display ('8 objects'), and NOT list

    them (when selecting MANY objects, a list would be too cumbersome).

5. Below the heading display (and enable editing) of all parameters

    common to ALL grouped objects.

OK, that's what I meant with 'least common denominator'.

6. This obviously would NOT enable the user to drag a 'selection'

    across a sheet and change the value of all capacitors to '100n',

    because not only the capacitors, but also connected NETS would be

    grouped. This is why the VALUE command itself (and other commands

    as well) should properly support groups.

 

Are you aware that GROUP actually accepts Ctrl ?

 

Yes. That's why I wrote 'accept dragging rectangles together with CTRL':

At the moment, it's possible EITHER to drag a rectangle OR select SINGLE

objects with CTRL. You cannot ADD rectangular regions to an already

existing group or remove such a region from one. It would be nice if

EAGLE could do it in the way every other graphical vector editor does it...

I don't think there are many editors who can actually ADD rectangular regions,

at least I don't know anyone. This should not prevent us from implementing

something like that

I have the impression it's a better idea to change the existing GROUP a

bit:

 

I am NOT talking about a change in the current behaviour of the GROUP

command here. All I wanted is to make it possible to add/subtract

NUMEROUS rectangular regions to/from a group, which is not possible

currently. The 'pointer' command I was talking about would NOT have the

full functionality of GROUP (e.g., no polygon selections), but just a

limited set for a more 'Office-like' feeling.

 

You need the Ctrl-click now in order to support MOVE with the normal

click

if I understand correct.

 

Again, I am NOT talking about changing the behaviour of EXISTING

commands. All mentioned functionality lies SOLELY in the 'pointer'

command, and does NOT have any impact on others. This means that all the

grouping, moving, deleting, rotating etc. mentioned is NOT done by

activating different commands, but by JUST activating the ONE 'pointer'

command that does all these things automatically, depending on the click

points.

 

OK, if this should work we'd have to rename GROUP to something like

GROUPMOVE or GROUPACTION

 

No, no, no! NO existing command needs to be renamed, and the behaviour

of all existing commands stays as always. Keep in mind that ALL

functionality lies in the ONE new 'pointer' command. This adds Office

functionality for the new users, but most experienced users will stay

with the more powerful existing EAGLE commands.

 

The new 'pointer' command is NOT a way to automatically switch between

the existing commands, but it has the FUNCTIONALITY (well, SOME of it)

of SEVERAL existing commands WITHOUT having to switch between them at all.

 

Andreas Weidner

OK, thanks for sharing your ideas !

Regards,

Walter Spermann

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

On 04/15/13 11:43, Andreas Weidner wrote:

Am 13.04.2013 22:25, schrieb Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de:

We have some architectural restrictions here: Generally commands don't

work across sheets

unless you operate with groups. I hope we can once overcome this

restriction.

 

Yes, please.

 

Does it make sense to set/change the VALUE for a whole group ?

 

Yes. Though it IS possible to use the command line for the infamous

"value 100n", you still need to click on EVERY capacitor. For typical

boards, we have about >50 of those, and ALL on the same sheet. Same

thing with diode matrices and "1N4148" etc.

OK, convinced !

 

Changing a group needs some additional user questions in the following

case (I think I already mentioned that sometime, but anyway):

1. In case ALL grouped objects have been defined with 'VALUE=ON',

    all grouped objects get the new value.

2. In case at least one grouped object was defined with 'VALUE=OFF',

    the user should be asked something like 'At least one object has

    no user-defineable value. Do you want to change these values, too?'

     - In case of YES, all grouped objects get the new value.

     - In case of NO, only the objects with 'VALUE=ON' get the new

       value, the others NOT.

     - In case of CANCEL, NO objects gets the new value.

3. All grouped objects that don't HAVE a value are completely ignored.

OK.

Anyway it's only applicable for part instances and elements. And you

want to give them all the same value ?

 

Of course this does not happen THAT often. Making those commands behave

properly with groups is just a function that should be implemented in

order to make the non-modal info dialog work with ALL sorts of selections.

 

Info for GROUP could be either the 'least common denominator' of all

group entities or something like

"group consisting of x Elements, y signals, z vias" and maybe listing

those.

 

Implementing ONLY the latter is rather useless - this would NOT make it

possible to change parameters at all. I would like to have BOTH things

shown:

4. As a heading, show 'No selection' if nothing is 'selected', or

    the object type in case only ONE object type is selected (e.g.

    '1 element' or '3 elements'), or the group information as stated

    by you ('3 elements, 5 signals'). Since this MIGHT get too long,

    it would also be OK to just display ('8 objects'), and NOT list

    them (when selecting MANY objects, a list would be too cumbersome).

5. Below the heading display (and enable editing) of all parameters

    common to ALL grouped objects.

OK, that's what I meant with 'least common denominator'.

6. This obviously would NOT enable the user to drag a 'selection'

    across a sheet and change the value of all capacitors to '100n',

    because not only the capacitors, but also connected NETS would be

    grouped. This is why the VALUE command itself (and other commands

    as well) should properly support groups.

 

Are you aware that GROUP actually accepts Ctrl ?

 

Yes. That's why I wrote 'accept dragging rectangles together with CTRL':

At the moment, it's possible EITHER to drag a rectangle OR select SINGLE

objects with CTRL. You cannot ADD rectangular regions to an already

existing group or remove such a region from one. It would be nice if

EAGLE could do it in the way every other graphical vector editor does it...

I don't think there are many editors who can actually ADD rectangular regions,

at least I don't know anyone. This should not prevent us from implementing

something like that

I have the impression it's a better idea to change the existing GROUP a

bit:

 

I am NOT talking about a change in the current behaviour of the GROUP

command here. All I wanted is to make it possible to add/subtract

NUMEROUS rectangular regions to/from a group, which is not possible

currently. The 'pointer' command I was talking about would NOT have the

full functionality of GROUP (e.g., no polygon selections), but just a

limited set for a more 'Office-like' feeling.

 

You need the Ctrl-click now in order to support MOVE with the normal

click

if I understand correct.

 

Again, I am NOT talking about changing the behaviour of EXISTING

commands. All mentioned functionality lies SOLELY in the 'pointer'

command, and does NOT have any impact on others. This means that all the

grouping, moving, deleting, rotating etc. mentioned is NOT done by

activating different commands, but by JUST activating the ONE 'pointer'

command that does all these things automatically, depending on the click

points.

 

OK, if this should work we'd have to rename GROUP to something like

GROUPMOVE or GROUPACTION

 

No, no, no! NO existing command needs to be renamed, and the behaviour

of all existing commands stays as always. Keep in mind that ALL

functionality lies in the ONE new 'pointer' command. This adds Office

functionality for the new users, but most experienced users will stay

with the more powerful existing EAGLE commands.

 

The new 'pointer' command is NOT a way to automatically switch between

the existing commands, but it has the FUNCTIONALITY (well, SOME of it)

of SEVERAL existing commands WITHOUT having to switch between them at all.

 

Andreas Weidner

OK, thanks for sharing your ideas !

Regards,

Walter Spermann

--

-

Walter Spermann

Softwareentwicklung

CadSoft Computer GmbH

Pleidolfweg 15

84568 Pleiskirchen

Tel.: 08635/6989-10

www.cadsoft.de

-

Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch

-

Am 16.04.2013 10:45, schrieb Walter Spermann:

Yes. Though it IS possible to use the command line for the infamous

"value 100n", you still need to click on EVERY capacitor. For typical

boards, we have about >50 of those, and ALL on the same sheet. Same

thing with diode matrices and "1N4148" etc.

OK, convinced !

If more or less ALL commands could work with groups, there would even be

an additional plus later on: This would finally make SEARCH or FIND

tools much more useful - these could just GROUP all found objects, and

then the user could even DO things with them...

I don't think there are many editors who can actually ADD rectangular regions,

at least I don't know anyone.

Hmmm, strange: EVERY vector graphics program I encountered during the

last 20 years (GEM Artline, CorelDraw, Professional Draw, MicrografX

Designer, Adobe Illustrator, Deneba Canvas, Aldus Freehand, AutoSketch,

InkScape, DrawPlus, OpenDraw, Tenado CAD - to just name a few of them)

supports that with its pointer (selection) tool. Most of them with

SHIFT, some with CTRL, but definitely ALL of them...

Andreas Weidner