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First time experience / Why is this not as expected

e14 Contributor

I am starting an electronics workshop for young kids, primarily revolving around microcontrollers, using SMD components with a 1.27mm pitch. As part of the program I will be introducing them to PCB software. The youngsters are eager, impatient and intuitive. I downloaded Eagle 6.2.0/Lite and tried a simple design and here are my experiences.

 

I worked with Eagle 4.0 more than 10 years ago and have forgotten nearly everything so this will be a trip through memory lane, so practically I am novice with deja vu.

 

The test design consists of a PIC16F648A-E/PPIC16F648A-E/P, 10 Leds, 2 Hall detectors, a bunch of resistors and a 6 pin connector.

 

- Placing the main component was straight forward. Also the power supply lines and symbols.

- Next I want to place the leds and bump into the first serious problem. The led is SMD with a 2mm by 1.25mm package.

 

The add component displays a staggering amount of candidates, this was to be expected. What was not to be expected that it is virtually impossible to make a generic selection. The selection box is very manufacture/part-number orientated. I miss a couple of section options including package type. I randomly browse through the list, and see "0805". I associate this with a resistor package and assume it is correct.

 

- Next I place the resistors. After some tries, I notice that the magic search string is "*0805*".

- Next I need to place the Hall detectors. I browse through the list and find the SIP3 package.

- Next I need to place the connector.

 

The connector is a single row, 1.27mm pitch 6 pin connector. I type "connector" in the search. The list is too long to work with. I do not have a brand name or part number to narrow the selection. After a couple of minutes I abandon randomly walking through the list and decide to browse through all the library components for a visual match. Some are good candidates but as there are no dimensions in the description. Selecting a few show that they are all the wrong size. Abandoning that I go to my component suppliers site to search for a matching

manufacture/part-number. None are present in the library, After more than 30 minutes I give up and just select one, knowing that the size is incorrect.

 

- I complete the schematic and switch to the board component placer.

- All the components are located under each other.

 

I pick up the first to move to a better location and get:

"The light edition of Eagle cannot perform action. Some objects extend outside allowed board area".

No board edge is shown so I do not know where the boundary lies.

I assume you need to set the board size somewhere, but I cannot find any menu item that suggests this.

The help does not offer any solution.

 

After a two hour session I give up and start writing this posting.

 

I truly admire Eagle and the capabilities. I do not understand why I cannot place the components on the board in the Lite version. But the component selection screen lacks too many selection tools -- In this case being package type, dimension sizes, pitch, and for the #rows/#pins. I get my stuff from RS-components/Mouser and Farnell, they have the selection tools I was expecting to see. There are just too many components to select on manufacture/part-number/description only, especially when they are incomplete.

 

The controls of Eagle are reasonably intuitive. But sadly, at this moment I cannot use Eagle for the PCB workshop. Placing of the components is locked, I was not able to try the auto-router, and I cannot expect the kids to spend ages just on finding and selecting the components.

  • 0 in reply to e14 Contributor

    Franz Korntner wrote:

     

     

    As a suggestion for others who might bump into the same situation

    (and frustration). Is is possible to outline the limited area so it

    is visually clear where it is possible (or not) to place the

    components?

     

    Thank you.

     

     

    There is normally a Half Euro card outline turned on in the Lite version.

    Perhaps you have the Dimension layer (20) turned off.

     

    HTH

    Warren

     

    --

    Viewed / responded via the newsgroup at

    news.cadsoft.de

     

     

     

  • 0 in reply to e14 Contributor

    The freeware version is size limited, EAGLE enforces that by limiting

    component placement and trace placement to a rectangle whose left-bottom

    and right-top corners are located at (0,0) and (100mm,80mm). When you go

    from schematic to board you notice that all of your components are

    initially outside of this limited area, this is the only time they're

    allowed to be and you're only allowed to move them into the working

    area, otherwise EAGLE gives you the license conflict warning.

     

    I suddenly realized something. The coordinates of the rectangle you mentioned are located outside of the screen. I zoomed out and placed the component, and it does work.

     

    As a suggestion for others who might bump into the same situation (and frustration). Is is possible to outline the limited area so it is visually clear where it is possible (or not) to place the components?

     

    Thank you.

  • 0 in reply to e14 Contributor

    The freeware version is size limited, EAGLE enforces that by limiting

    component placement and trace placement to a rectangle whose left-bottom

    and right-top corners are located at (0,0) and (100mm,80mm). When you go

    from schematic to board you notice that all of your components are

    initially outside of this limited area, this is the only time they're

    allowed to be and you're only allowed to move them into the working

    area, otherwise EAGLE gives you the license conflict warning.

     

    Thank you for the clarity. However, what you describe is not what I experience. After switching to the board editor I indeed get the components spread outside the allowed dimensions. I then pick up a component, but are not allowed to place it anywhere, as show in image below.

     

    Thank you.

     

    image

  • 0 in reply to e14 Contributor

    On 6/27/2012 12:28 PM, Franz Korntner wrote:

     

    But a library with generic components does seem a plausible solution.

     

    There are a few libraries that can fill in most of your needs as far as

    passives go. For example if you look at the rcl library you can find

    pretty much any footprint you could need for a resistor and a capacitor,

    there's a lot of variation in inductors for my previous statement to

    extend to them. But let's say you need a 0805 resistor, use device R0805

    in the rcl library.

     

    Active devices and transistors are more complex since there's greater

    variability, in these cases most of the packages you'll need can be

    found in the ref-packages library which will greatly simplify your

    library creation efforts. The linear library is good for the old staples

    of electronics like the LM741 and LM555.

     

    Like Andreas mentioned once you now how to do it you can make the

    majority of the parts you need in only a few minutes.

     

     

    Now only, why does Eagle choke in a license conflict when moving the components of a small design?

     

     

    The freeware version is size limited, EAGLE enforces that by limiting

    component placement and trace placement to a rectangle whose left-bottom

    and right-top corners are located at (0,0) and (100mm,80mm). When you go

    from schematic to board you notice that all of your components are

    initially outside of this limited area, this is the only time they're

    allowed to be and you're only allowed to move them into the working

    area, otherwise EAGLE gives you the license conflict warning.

     

    hth,

    Jorge Garcia

    Cadsoft Support

     

     

     

  • 0 in reply to skyflyrr

    Interesting point of view. I indeed could construct a library consisting of generic component with their occurring packages. So for 99% of the time I would only need to select out of some 20 different library components. This would indeed significantly speed up development time by a couple of magnitudes. It would be nice if this was already available in Eagle.

     

    Perhaps this might already be. Trying this out...

     

    Selection "*SOT323*". It shows 'transistor power/N-HEXFET'. Expanding... But the Description column displays "SOT223"?! Why?? [because sot323 is part of the component name]

     

    Ok then, lets try "*SOT223*". It shows 7 components, but the above N-HEXFET is not among them.

     

    It would seem that the filter does not search the description, and the 'search in Description' checkbox is checked.

     

    But a library with generic components does seem a plausible solution.

     

     

    Now only, why does Eagle choke in a license conflict when moving the components of a small design?

  • 0 in reply to skyflyrr

    Am 27.06.2012 16:48, schrieb Bob Moreno:

    the library is a serious problem. While it may seem that having actual

    > components to every possible part that exists is good, in actual use

    it is

    > a nightmare.

     

    Yes. Unfortunately, this is the case with ALL such programs. EAGLE at

    least provides SOME descriptions, other programs don't even do THAT.

     

    Additionally, ALL libraries are sorted by manufacturer: This is the only

    DECENT possibility the software programmers can do. Unfortunately, the

    manufacturer is most often what the users do NOT care about - they just

    want a device that's correct in footprint. And since footprints for

    connectors do NOT have any predefined name that is used all over the

    world, the user doesn't even know what to search for.

     

    And still worse: If, after years of searching, you DO find the right

    device, you might also find (after building the board, which didn't

    work) that there is some error in the library.

     

    Therefore: Whatever CAD program you're using, the FIRST thing you should

    learn is how to create your own libraries. Only in the most dire

    circumstances we use other people's libraries here. I myself spend just

    below 10% of my time creating EAGLE parts (but that's for about 20

    users). Of course that's all a lot of work, but it's the only

    possibility to get what YOU can work with easily. And, in the end,

    creating a part is often NOT more work than searching hours for the

    correct library device.

     

    A generic library with several hundred components and their packages

    > is by far much better.

     

    Yes. And since everybody has DIFFERENT library needs, everybody (or at

    least the EAGLE administrator) should build their own libraries.

     

    It should take minutes to build a package with any size pad,

    > number of pads and pitch without having to constantly change grid size

    > or copy pads to complete a high pad count package.

     

    Creating most through-hole devices DOES only take minutes, but for SMDs

    with their strange pad positions, which often do not even use the same

    grid in both directions, this is NOT nice. But here, the culprit is not

    EAGLE, but the component manufacturers, who think up designs that just

    ARE very complicated.

     

    True, EAGLE's library capabilities COULD be improved. There might even

    now exist some ULPs that help you in this respect, but I don't know

    them, and they're not available in the GUI, so new users will never find

    that functionality. But overall, I have the impression that only about

    30% of the library problems are CadSoft's, the other 70% are different

    user desires, strange manufacturer's designs,...

     

    Andreas Weidner

     

  • 0

    Hello all, I would like to say that I completely agree with this psot. I too am new to Eagle and though I have the professional version with almost no limitations, the library is a serious problem. While it may seem that having actual components to every possible part that exists is good, in actual use it is a nightmare. A generic library with several hundred components and their packages is by far much better. Eagle is great, but sorely lacking in a way to use the library in a quick and efficient manner. Please consider adding a generic library which contains through-hole and smd components and packages or at minimum a way to build packages in a quick and efficient manner. It should take minutes to build a package with any size pad, number of pads and pitch without having to constantly change grid size or copy pads to complete a high pad count package. If Eagle already has this capability I would appreciate someone letting me know.

     

    Thank you,

     

    Bob Moreno