Eagle 7.2 Win install directory -- why non-standard?

Am 29.04.2015 um 06:21 schrieb Graham Wideman:

Hi all,

 

I went to install Eagle 7.2, and immediately got stuck when it offers a

default install directory of C:\EAGLE-7.2.0.  OK, why?

 

In general I don't want apps installing themselves in random top-level

locations; why can't Eagle just install in one of the standard

locations?

 

So, I could just edit the suggested location, but to which standard

location? Is Eagle a 32-bit app or a 64-bit app? And maybe there's some

crucial reason why it can't be installed to one of those?

 

Eventually I found online a file "v7.2_en.pdf" EAGLE Update Information,

which contains the enigmatic remark "On Windows the default installation

path in the setup dialog has been changed from the Windows program

folder to C:\EAGLE-<version> (<version> being the full EAGLE version

string)."

 

No explanation of why this change, and how crucial it is to abide by it.

Maybe it's just a mistake?

 

FWIW, I changed the path to C:\Program Files (x86)\EAGLE-7.2.0. Even

doing that was a hassle because the Browse window won't allow you to

browse then enter the name of the new installation directory. But it is

possible to back out of that window and enter the desired path by hand.

 

After installation, I checked the eagle.exe executable, and it is a

32-bit app, so I guessed correctly on the location.

 

Still don't know if this will cause problems downstream though.

 

Any further info on this?

 

-- Graham

 

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I think for making an installation easy, there must a path be given.

But how should eagle know how many hard disks you have and how they are

named?

Then think of the structure of windows. There is the admin account and

the users account which are different protected by the way.

As a user the program  will be  ready under "username" and that's one

reason why some people do not find their files

Install your program on any drive i.e. F:\eagle-xy  and not under

c:\users, adjust the path in the control panel options and you are done

--

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag

Joern: Thanks for replying, but your comment does not reconcile with how programs are customarily installed on Windows. There has historically been a \Program Files directory, and in 64-bit Windows there's also a \Program Files(x86) directory. These are usually on the first hard drive, which is usually called "C:". But installers don't have to know any of that, because they can use a shell variable %programfiles% or %programfiles(x86)%, which deals with the possibility of a non-standard file layout. Applications are almost never installed to a user's home directory (though a script might be).

So if there's a reason for Eagle offering/suggesting to install in its own top-level directory, it's not because it's too difficult for the installer to figure out the conventional place to install.

-- Graham

On 29/04/15 06:44, Graham Wideman wrote:

Joern: Thanks for replying, but your comment does not reconcile with how

programs are customarily installed on Windows. There has historically

been a \Program Files directory, and in 64-bit Windows there's also a

\Program Files(x86) directory. These are usually on the first hard

drive, which is usually called "C:". But installers don't have to know

any of that, because they can use a shell variable %programfiles% or

%programfiles(x86)%, which deals with the possibility of a non-standard

file layout. Applications are almost never installed to a user's home

directory (though a script might be).

 

The problem is Microsoft's, not Cadsoft's

The historical convention you talk about results in a lot of

user-editable files living under either Program Files or Program Data.

However, recent Windows versions have rendered those folders "special" -

not user writable and kuldged with a ghastly (incomprehensible,

problematic) virtualisation scheme. Applications which follow the

historical approach therefore suffer from bizarre problems, like files

the user has saved apparently vanishing, or simply failing to save.

Eagle's more recent default of installing at the root level is, in any

case, not the horror you seem to think it is. It's almost as common as

the Program Files one, and avoids a lot of the virtualisation crap.

If you want your applications installed in sensible places, working

correctly for all users, without ugliness... then you need to run a

different OS.

Cadsoft Guest

I am trying to find out what breaks if I install Eagle under C:\Program Files (x86). 

I am not very convinced that the Windows file system is that broken, nor that it's commonplace for apps to ignore the conventions. I have over 200 applications installed of all sorts -- consumer apps, developer tools, graphic and video tools, specialized science and engineering tools. Somehow all but about three of them manage to install and run properly, don't offer to save end-user files in the application directories, and files don't go missing.

Regardless, if you don't like to install software in \Program Files, that's fine.

What I want to know is what, if anything, breaks if I do install Eagle in the \Program Files (x86) ?

-- Graham

I believe it is no problem as long as the short cut you use has the correct current directory to where you moved the library. This is windows standards that all programs follow including Eagle.

Clem

Clem --

YIKES thanks for prompting me to check. I still have 6.5 installed, and I see that 7.2 is just using the same Libraries path as 6.5! So I'm not getting the benefit of any new libraries that came with 7.2.

Apparently the two versions share the same settings file: C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Roaming\CadSoft\EAGLE\eaglerc.usr

Pros and cons to that, I suppose.

-- Graham

Am 29.04.2015 um 10:32 schrieb Graham Wideman:

Clem --

 

YIKES thanks for prompting me to check. I still have 6.5 installed, and

I see that 7.2 is just using the same Libraries path as 6.5! So I'm not

getting the benefit of any new libraries that came with 7.2.

 

Apparently the two versions share the same settings file:

C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Roaming\CadSoft\EAGLE\eaglerc.usr

 

Pros and cons to that, I suppose.

 

-- Graham

 

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I (must) use different versions of eagle on the same windows. Just use

the -U option and install in different paths.

--

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag

My guess is that, since EAGLE is cross platform, Cadsoft is trying to

minimize the code that they have to change for portability.  It may be

that, since they're such a small shop, they might not have the

cross-platform expertise to know or use each different operating system's

idioms.

I personally don't ever use the EAGLE installation program.  I extract each

version into its own directory and make a shortcut on my desktop for each

version.  The first thing I do when starting a new version is to set paths

properly to find my scripts, libraries, design rules, etc.

--

Web access to CadSoft support forums at www.eaglecentral.ca.  Where the CadSoft EAGLE community meets.

Hi Graham,

The reason we changed the default installation path is to avoid the

virtualisation issues in newer Windows (it started in Vista and then

took hold from there).

Many users don't bother to check where they save their work and often

save into EAGLE's installation directory. With the UAC features the

write get redirected without the user ever knowing.

When they try to find the files through Windows explorer they don't

appear and panic ensues. This behaviour caused us (the support staff

specifically) a lot of head aches and calls. So the decision was made to

simply change the default path to avoid the issue altogether.

One could argue that the correct solution would be to conform to Windows

file conventions and make any necessary adjustment to where our

libraries and such are stored to avoid this issue. At this time we want

to minimize any special considerations based on OS so that is the

decision we went with.

Computer savy users can usually figure out what's going and save their

work elsewhere, but unfortunately they don't make up the majority of

EAGLE users.

Basically, as long as you don't save any of your work into the

installation directories, or try to modify anything in the installation

directories then you won't have problems.

I hope this gives you some insight.

Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia

Jorge and all:

First off, thanks for filling me in on the rationale for why the change of install directory. That allows me to assess the alternatives. Here's what I think I learned.

Apparently the problem to be solved was that users were saving their docs to the default location offered by Eagle's Save dialog, which was set to point to a directory within the Eagle application directory. That has not been a reasonable location to store user docs at least as far back as WinXP, so over 13 years.

Windows has increasingly attempted to protect application directories against arbitrary writes by nonprivileged users. So in recent versions of Windows, attempts by applications (perhaps running with non-admin permissions) to save user files to their app directories have been redirected to the specific user's VirtualStore:

So, the app tries to save to C:\Program Files (x86)\EAGLE-6.5.0

Windows saves that to:

C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\EAGLE-6.5.0.

(I'm assuming that Eagle 6.5's Open dialog would see into the VirtualStore when opening -- that is Save and Open were symmetrical, though I have not tried it myself.)

Amongst other things, it means multiple users using the same copy of Eagle don't overwrite each other's files.

However, if users use Windows Explorer to go looking for their files where they think they put them, obviously they will be surprised.

Let's be clear, however, that this is not intended to be a good way of doing things. It is simply a way for Windows to tighten security while dealing with legacy applications that don't properly deal with saving files.

There is nothing to stop Eagle from making sure that the Save dialog defaults to some directory other than the application directory. A decent choice would be within the User's home directory:

C:\Users\[user]\Documents\Eagle

or similar. And there are OS variables that an app can use to easily determine that directory, even if the user has located it somewhere else.

Of course, a slightly more savvy user might use Eagle settings to specify a different directory, as is current practice, especially for multiple users sharing files, perhaps on a server.

The point is, on no platform should Eagle be storing user documents in the application's installation directory. Surely it doesn't do so on Mac or linux? So why would it suggest to do so on Windows?

Bottom line: from what I've heard so far, it seems to me that the change to a non-standard installation directory was primarily a coarse fix for the fine-scale issue of simply pointing the Save and Open dialogs to a sensible default location.

-- Graham