Thoughts on Eagle 8?

On 2/2/2017 7:03 PM, Adam Drewery wrote:

On 2/2/2017 7:03 PM, Adam Drewery wrote:

> New Features:

> The module feature sounds really useful, because we use several

switching regulators on multiple PCBs. However, I have been unable to

get it to work.The context menu for the module tool may as well be

another language, because it does not make any sense to me.

>

I think you are referring to designblocks right? Because modules are

part of the heirarchy functionality that was introduced in V7.

For designblocks you go File > Save selection as Designblock. Form the

group of parts you want to be in the block and ctrl right click. This

will take you to the board, repeat the selection by adding the traces

you want to be part of the designblock. Ctrl right click one more time.

Now you can save it as a reausable block you can bring into new designs.

> The "easy BGA" feature left multiple pads trapped, and it would have

been an enormous pain to use them in the future if needed. Should have

known - autorouters aren't very good.

The BGA router is highly configurable and it's likely that a different

set of parameters may have resulted in a better fanout.

>

> I find the simplified selection tools are actually more difficult to use.

As a long time EAGLE user, I feel your pain. It takes a little bit of

getting used to, but you'll find that you can largely still work in a

way that's familiar to you. All of the commands still maintain their

modal properties so you can use them in that way if you see fit.

You can also disable this property altogether by going Options > Set >

Misc tab, uncheck the Group default on option.

>

> The library support causes me a lot of heartburn. Far too often we

have had library parts we import in that are either just plain wrong,

and on finer pitched parts, our assembly houses have had issues. This

ultimately cost us a 1 - 3 week delay in getting boards in.

This is the nature of the beast we call EDA. All supplier provided

libraries should be taken with a grain of salt and verified. Many users

(in all tools not just EAGLE) have adopted the position that they will

only use parts they have made themselves. This is something you will run

into regardless of the program you use.

>

> Routing:

> Previously, when I was routing a trace, I would click the center

mouse button and select the new layer. Eagle would then switch to the

selected layer and insert a via. I would then route on the layer I had

just selected. Perfect. To me this was very intuitive.

>

> Now, I click the center mouse button, I select my desired layer, and

it forces me to route on the same layer I was on. It does not sink the

via until after I've dragged the trace over pads that are for different

signals. This, in my opinion, makes the routing tool incredibly

difficult to use. In fact, I would say it's almost useless. I often have

to get around several obstacles and I don't know that I want to switch

layers until I am stuck. Then I have to either group all the traces and

change the layers, or you have to swap them one by one.

This is really odd, are you using other keys in conjunction with the

route command? The middle mouse click, puts the via on the end of the

current trace after you select the layer you want to be on. Now you

place the via and then continue routing on the layer you selected. Using

the spacebar allows you to cycle through the various layers and avoid

the dialog all together.

If you want to place a via and then continue routing on the same layers,

once you are in via mode hold shift and left click.

>

> I visited their support site, and I was unable to identify whether I

could change this functionality back (note: you cannot). I was unable to

find any "support" other than questions about subscriptions. I spent an

hour looking for any way to change such a simple setting. I even

contacted support, but when I asked if it was possible to change that

setting I got, "So you are wanting to leave feedback?" No, I want to be

able to use one of the most fundamental parts of a PCB design program.

Thank you for reaching this forum, you could also reach us on the

Autodesk forums. It may be to late now, but I thought this might be

useful for the future.

>

> So Autodesk buys Eagle, and then immediately turns it into a

subscription based service. I understand that many software platforms

are going to this model, but I don't want to have to maintain a

subscription if I do not think the new features being added in will be

worth it. Much less if one of the most basic functions - routing - is

useless as it stands right now.

I think a demo is in order to show how the routing function is used

since it's drastically different to how EAGLE worked before. Once it's

understood though, I don't think I could ever go back to the way it was

before.

Please feel free to contact me directly jorge.garcia@autodesk.com

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,

Jorge Garcia

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Jorge,

Thank you for the reply.

Are there any tutorial videos on any of these new features? I feel like I looked around for quite a while, but I could only find the screenshots or 20 - 30 second clips on the Autodesk website. I realize it is new to Autodesk. When you make such large changes to basic functionality, I would expect a better (or any) tutorial would go a long way.

I tried to go to the Autodesk forums for help, but the Autodesk website is rather confusing to navigate. It was also shortly after launch, so I guess it wasn't fully operational at the time. Until just now, I was unable to find an EAGLE specific forum there. I want to include this post here, because this is exactly what irritates those of us in small businesses. Solved: New EAGLE licensing - Autodesk Community

That's a lot of long time users who are switching to KiCAD, or they are refusing your subscription based model and sticking with legacy Eagle versions. I was willing to look past it, but I cannot get past some of the changes Autodesk has made.

As far as the routing is concerned, I have the Route command set to a hotkey. I am not using anything else with it. I will include pictures here to hopefully clarify what I mean.

I want to be able to place a portion of the trace, like below:

Once I click the center mouse button/hit space bar and select my new layer, I want to have the via sink and then I can route on that layer. Like this:

Eagle 8.0 does not allow you to do this. Instead, you continue routing on the current layer, and then it sinks the via after you click. Then you start routing on the new layer. I tried holding shift + clicking but it did not change.

I respectfully disagree with you that this is actually more intuitive or useful. I could see times where I would want the routing to work as it does in Eagle 8, but most of the time I prefer to have it work as it did in legacy Eagle versions. Part of this is being comfortable with how it works, and part of it is how I prefer to do board layout. At minimum, I should have the option to decide how something so fundamental and important works. Much in the same manner as there are two variations of each wire bend type.

Regards,

Adam Drewery

Hi Adam,

now, wow, the routing needs a little bit training to use intuitiv.

That works fine if you know the workaround.
1) - press routing
2) - select with the left mouse button the layer
3) - route from to where you like stepping
4) - press the middle mouse button -> the via appears -> you can forward routing on the same active layer (the via goes with you picked up),
or you can
4a) press the LEFT mouse button -> the via will fixed on this stopped place AND the next activ layer can be routed.
4b) by pressing the left mouse button the layer will changed, if you have more then two layers,

or if you have just two layers you will routing toward the top.

This can misunderstood if you haven't seen this. May be this is your little problem.

This is the flowchart:
LEFT -> rotates the Layer, MIDDLE -> sets the Via, RIGHT -> rotates the wire corner shape

The left mouse button also has a multifunction: start / stop routing; select / pick up / lose the selected part

Gerald

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Hi Jorge,

At 2h02 i answered Adam. Now tried testing the routing flowchart.

Eagle V 8 free::

I seems there is a software bug.
a) if the mouse button have distortion / or the finger was sleeping / than it can switching more then once.
Then the routing stops and routing again on this wire can be difficult.

b) if the mouse button /via was pressed and the via appear AND then the routing was stopped

because contact distortion, the layer can not be changed nor routing.

-> a second via appears and after that i can route a wire on the changed layer.
So it can be placed more vias than one at the same place.

-> I suggest that switching the menu "Layer" and the mouse buttons must better checked.
Because the activating or deactivating can be more complex.

Best Regards,

Gerald

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If the mouse button contacts are bouncing enough to produce multiple

outputs with 1 press, you need a new mouse. That's not the fault of eagle

software.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

Gerald,

Thank you for the reply. While the suggestion did help to a small degree, I still do not think that it's very intuitive. If it were truly intuitive then training or a flowchart would not be needed. For something like routing a trace, I think use of a flowchart adds confusion, but everyone learns in their own way. In this case, it was a complete overhaul to a completely functional system. I've tried to keep an open mind, and I've messed around with another layout. I think the more I use it the more frustrated I get. To me, it makes more sense for step 4 to be:

4) press the middle mouse button - > select layer -> via is placed at current trace end and layer is switched

Why does there need to be TWO additional steps? 4a and 4b are unnecessary mouse clicks in my opinion. I suggest giving the user the option to determine how that works. Especially considering the system was completely changed. It could be just like the different wire bend styles. When the middle mouse button is pressed and the new layer is selected:

Option a) The via is sunk immediately, and routing begins on a new layer. (Legacy Eagle routing operation)

Option b) The via is carried until an additional left mouse click has been made. The via is then formed where that mouse click occurs. (Eagle 8 routing operation)

I guess my questions to you are:

1) Do you feel there was any real improvement made in changing the routing engine?

2) What do you think about the other changes that have been made?

3) Does the fact that it's a subscription make any difference to you?

My answers to those questions are:

1) No, not really. I think I've made it pretty clear that I am not a fan of how it works now.

2) I really don't think there's been any real improvement. The snap to pin feature was cool on the schematic, but in using it quite a bit I felt like it is overall more difficult to work with schematics.

3) I absolutely hate the idea that I will never own the product, and this undoubtedly will color my opinion of the changes and new features.

This also brings up perhaps the biggest issue of all. Why was there not some sort of basic, easy to find tutorial highlighting some of the new features and changes to existing features? Something that would highlight the changes and offer some suggestions for using Eagle how it used to be? If Autodesk truly intends to have Eagle CAD remain a quality product, then their support and tutorials need a drastic improvement. Thus far I have been sorely disappointed.

Regards,

Adam

I think there is a fault in the software too.

Bouncing, ok, but this was not my argument.

I meant switching from one layer to the other - if - the wire was stopped

AND i like routing again i must go a step of grid and then i can change the layer.

I created a small video you can see what i mean.

Please open this video with the Mozilla Firefox browser.

With the old version i can start routing directly after changing the layer.

Yes bouncing the  mouse contact also sleeping fingers can stop routing.

But i like go forward at the place where i stopped, on the same layer or on an other layer.

Best Regards,

Gerald

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I think there is a fault in the software too.

Bouncing, ok, but this was not my argument.

I meant switching from one layer to the other - if - the wire was stopped

AND i like routing again i must go a step of grid and then i can change the layer.

I created a small video you can see what i mean.

Please open this video with the Mozilla Firefox browser.

With the old version i can start routing directly after changing the layer.

Yes bouncing the  mouse contact also sleeping fingers can stop routing.

But i like go forward at the place where i stopped, on the same layer or on an other layer.

Best Regards,

Gerald

Hi Adam,

Oh yes, I absolutely agree with you.

The old version was easier to use.

Please see the video, what I meant.

I think there is a software bug available.

Yes, two steps would not be effective.

It's like having a car that gives you gas that gears and brakes together.

Regards

Gerald

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Gerald:

My comment was only related to your possible switch bounce problem. You

would be better off starting a new thread with a relevant title concerning

the change in Eagles operation, since it is more likely to be noticed. Try

another mouse to see if the unintended extra mouse click is still there.

--

EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.