Special Promotion for EAGLE PCB Users

It is tempting.

I have a full Eagle license and probably will be okay for about a year. The big question for me is which package will be the next highly popular package? The ability to share designs with a large user base is important.

Eagle has a huge user base compared to other packages. What will happen to this user base?

I expect their user base to erode substantially due to the new license scheme, but will they hang on to enough market share to make it a market leader in terms of seats?

The door is open for others to take some of the user base, but are any other packages attractive enough to take a really significant share?

I think it will still be a tough decision in a year when I will be considering choices as I am not keen on the subscription model.

I'm not averse to subscription but the significant cost increase for 6-layer with EAGLE means CircuitStudio will be lower cost over a couple of years, based on risk assessment that 6-layer may be used for a few months per year.

However what's putting me off CircuitStudio is that when I tried their DXP product many years ago for a complete, reasonably complex project, it had far lower productivity than EAGLE. I could have done the job in half the time with EAGLE. I hope that has changed, but from the screenshots it doesn't seem to look much different. We give a lot of time learning how to use a CAD package, and the hope is it is in exchange for improving productivity.

To compound that the second reason I get cold feet with putting effort into CircuitStudio is that there have been many comments from users about strange impacts due to CircuitStudio being a deliberately cut-down product. Just one example that was concerning to me was that polygon priority could not be controlled except by the order that polygons are created. To me this seems like trying to deliberately slow down the user. They may as well have nag screens to watch an advert in exchange to allow a user to type in a priority, it is that silly.

So, for me I can't find an attractive package and I'm holding out until I hear that some of the deliberate cut-down functionality doesn't slow down productivity, and hearing more about ways that the work effort to create pads and parts and schematics and layout can be as fast compared to EAGLE, not just for CircuitStudio but for other packages too (for me I've ruled out DipTrace, I can't recall the reason but it was based on the information on their website).

So like you, I'm also waiting out for this year and postponing the decision.

I'm personally not jumping from EAGLE to Altium. I have a v7 Pro license so the logical jump "up" for me would be Altium Designer and not Circuit Studio but even with their 40% off promotion it is still WAY more money than EAGLE even before you factor in the cost of the subscription required to be able to access support and updates after the first year which is something people seem to forget. Add in that it's Windows only so I would need to boot into a Windows VM on my Mac to do design work and it's even less of an option.

EAGLE does have some mitigation against not being able to continue once you let your subscription lapse. Designs are still fully readable and can be exported to manufacturing in the free version and you can always drop back to v7 if you need to edit something and your v8 subscription has lapsed.

If you only need 6 layers for a small amount of time then you can upgrade your subscription to Premium for the duration of that project and then drop down to Standard or freeware when you don't need that capability.

I do think they could staunch a lot of the bleeding of the existing user base by introducing two more licensing tiers:

1) Low cost non-commercial license for Makers.

2) Intermediate level license between Standard and Premium as currently the step between the two licenses is large.

They clearly aren't going to reverse course on the subscription model. I do wish there was an option to pay a "full and final settlement" to allow the permanent use of the version you had on subscription once you let your subscription lapse but I don't know if they have the capability to implement such a thing into the subscription system or not. I don't see this happening any time soon if ever though, and being able to fall back to a v7 license mitigates a lot of the issues (for me at least) anyway.

Best Regards,

Rachael

Shabaz, I agree with your point, but - I try always to be pragmatic - I suggest you pass over your prejudice and try a new version. We all know very well your great capabilities in testing and reporting new products so your opinion on the behaviour of last version of this product swill be very appreciated.

BTW, I confirm that one of the bigger lacks of Altium is just the single-platform support. The other non-trivial limitation is implicitly explained in the minimal requirements for the software installation:

• Windows 7 or Windows 8 (32-bit or 64-bit)
• Intel Core i5 processor or equivalent
• 8 GByte RAM
• 3 GByte hard disk space (Install + User Files)
• NVIDIA GeForce GT 640 series or AMD Radeon HD 7770, 1024MB (or more) graphics card or better, supporting DirectX 9.0c and Shader model 3 (or later)
• Dual monitors with at least 1680x1050 (widescreen) or 1600x1200 (4:3) screen resolution
• USB2.0 port if connecting to 3D Mouse
• 3D mouse for 3D PCB design, such as the Space Navigator

(got from the Altium site). This means that with smaller machines this does not works fine? Or does not work at all? What do they mean for the 3D mouse availability? I regulalrly design 3D components with complex CAD applications (e.g. Rhino and more complex too) with just a mouse or a touch or a Wacom tablet with no difficult...

Enrico

Hi Enrico,

You're absolutely right, there is no substitute for trying it out, I will do that sometime hopefully. I was just hoping that from the current user feedback I'd get warmer feet before trying it. The past DXP experience is now worth little since it was so long ago.

rachaelp it is a good point that if subscription is a road they cannot steer away from then there is a huge leap between the two licenses that could be mitigated with a third option.

The 'maker' option is something that many businesses have not executed well on. For 'makers' the old student license model doesn't work for them. And possibilities for them are more sophisticated nowadays and they don't want to be tied to severe restrictions like 2-layer. And they are more open to using free options like KiCAD.

This is a different target customer, and an ultra-low cost like $10 per _year_ (not month) would instantly get tons of effectively beta-testers for early releases of EAGLE or CircuitStudio or otherwise, i.e. Autodesk or Altium could get these users to do their testing for them.

Matlab *almost* had the right idea for 'makers' (in their case they called them home users), but their ultra-low cost was still slightly high to attract many 'makers' I suspect, and they had a broken model where you were locked out of spending more money with them for toolboxes, unless a support cost was paid.

I'm not an Eagle user so don't have this problem but if I had to change PCB cads I would look very hard at Kicad. It might not do if you need heavyweight features but as a basic system it looks quite good.

If you don't mind Windows then EasyPC (which I do use) is a good basic tool, and about the same price as Altium's offer on CiruitStudio.

If you want dead cheap for home use then RS' Design Spark PCB is a free (as in beer) clone of EasyPC.

If you need heavyweight features like FPGA pin swapping, controlled impedance etc then it's probably going to cost you some serious money (but KiCad might be good enough - it supports Python scripting and has some controlled impedance features)

MK

Hi Shabaz,

frankly I am seriously approaching the Altium package just now so I can't say not so much in this moment. But about the new Eagle licensing system I am almost convinced that this move is just to exclude from their business (no matter if it is the right choice, it's up to them) all the Makers, personal users etc. etc. keeping the big companies and more interesting clients (maybe)

Kcad is the right option for makers, probably, but approaching a more professional need - despite the complexity of the PCB - I suppose that a one-shot investment for a complete tool maybe the worth.

Enrico

Hi Shabaz,

frankly I am seriously approaching the Altium package just now so I can't say not so much in this moment. But about the new Eagle licensing system I am almost convinced that this move is just to exclude from their business (no matter if it is the right choice, it's up to them) all the Makers, personal users etc. etc. keeping the big companies and more interesting clients (maybe)

Kcad is the right option for makers, probably, but approaching a more professional need - despite the complexity of the PCB - I suppose that a one-shot investment for a complete tool maybe the worth.

Enrico

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

But about the new Eagle licensing system I am almost convinced that this move is just to exclude from their business (no matter if it is the right choice, it's up to them) all the Makers, personal users etc. etc. keeping the big companies and more interesting clients (maybe)

I'm not convinced here. Matt Berggren is himself a Maker so I don't think he'd deliberately try to push this group of users away from EAGLE. Hopefully I am right, we'll have to see how things play out....

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

Kcad is the right option for makers, probably, but approaching a more professional need - despite the complexity of the PCB - I suppose that a one-shot investment for a complete tool maybe the worth.

It's only a one shot investment if you are happy to not have any support / updates after the initial one year subscription you get with your Altium license. After that you still need to pay an annual subscription to have continued access to support and new versions, even bug fix releases, so if you come across a show stopper of a bug and you are out of maintenance then you're out of luck until you shell out money to get back onto maintenance and this usually costs more when you've let it lapse.

It's only a one shot investment if you are happy to not have any support / updates after the initial one year subscription you get with your Altium license. After that you still need to pay an annual subscription to have continued access to support and new versions, even bug fix releases, so if you come across a show stopper of a bug and you are out of maintenance then you're out of luck until you shell out money to get back onto maintenance and this usually costs more when you've let it lapse

Rachel, frankly your vision sounds a bit too dramatic. First, it's only a one shot investment, right; this means that - if the software fits your expectations - that it will work at least as you need. One year for bugs and updates is not too short, you have all the time you want to use proficiently (or not) the package, explore it in depth and find all possible unlisted bugs. It is very difficult IMHO that a "living" software maintained and updated can have a bug that is not solved in one year !

Keeping the parallel with EAGLE, you had something very similar. I bought it version 4 some years ago, the I was supported until version 5.6 (if I am not wrong) then I discovered that version 6 was including a couple of very useful features for some of my projects. I searched everywhere how to upgrade the version and - it sounds honest to me - told me that this version needed a new license at a reasonable discounted cost. The same when I moved to version 7 (that Element14 generously offered me one year limited time license). Software development costs, and it is reasonable that users pay for a serious maintenance and real upgrade.

About what you say

I'm not convinced here. Matt Berggren is himself a Maker so I don't think he'd deliberately try to push this group of users away from EAGLE. Hopefully I am right, we'll have to see how things play out...

It sounds a bit ingenuous this sentence. The fact that Matt is a maker himself I think this does not mean nothing. One thing are the personal aptitudes and another the business, especially when it involves a big company. As far as I know (maybe you know personally Matt) he chat with us representing Eagle, not just his own personal opinions.

Enrico

Hi Enrico,

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

It's only a one shot investment if you are happy to not have any support / updates after the initial one year subscription you get with your Altium license. After that you still need to pay an annual subscription to have continued access to support and new versions, even bug fix releases, so if you come across a show stopper of a bug and you are out of maintenance then you're out of luck until you shell out money to get back onto maintenance and this usually costs more when you've let it lapse

Rachel, frankly your vision sounds a bit too dramatic. First, it's only a one shot investment, right; this means that - if the software fits your expectations - that it will work at least as you need. One year for bugs and updates is not too short, you have all the time you want to use proficiently (or not) the package, explore it in depth and find all possible unlisted bugs. It is very difficult IMHO that a "living" software maintained and updated can have a bug that is not solved in one year !

So 11 months into your subscription they bring out a great feature which enables you to do something you couldn't do previously so you upgrade to that. Then you start a new project and by the time you get to implementing what you needed that feature for, your subscription has since expired. A month or so into a large design you find that this feature has an error you didn't previously spot that makes it not work. What do you do?

How about if you've just been happy with your version for a while because the boards you've done haven't been complex but a while after the subscription has lapsed, maybe even years, you have to do something more complex. All of a sudden you find the bugs in the tool which you didn't spot because you weren't pushing the limits of the tool. You do some searching and find the issue you have is a known issue fixed in a version after your maintenance expired so you are not eligible to download it. What do you do?

And yes, I have seen these exact situations.

For any professional who depends on being able to keep the tools working for their livelihood then not having an active maintenance could be very costly. This is where Altium, Mentor, Cadence etc all cash in as they know their users are very likely to want to be on active maintenance. Look at the chart posted by Dave Jones on the EEVBlog of how Altiums financing breaks down and you'll see they make more from subscriptions each year than selling new seats of their tools.

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

Keeping the parallel with EAGLE, you had something very similar. I bought it version 4 some years ago, the I was supported until version 5.6 (if I am not wrong) then I discovered that version 6 was including a couple of very useful features for some of my projects. I searched everywhere how to upgrade the version and - it sounds honest to me - told me that this version needed a new license at a reasonable discounted cost. The same when I moved to version 7 (that Element14 generously offered me one year limited time license). Software development costs, and it is reasonable that users pay for a serious maintenance and real upgrade.

If you had a 5.6 license then you most likely paid for v5 as well as v4 unless you bought v4 very shortly before v5 was released and then I suspect they gave those users who had bought a v4 license just before the release an upgrade.

I agree completely with your last sentence here. Either buying the software outright or paying a subscription goes towards paying for the development. I'm not sure why you think I thought otherwise?

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

I'm not convinced here. Matt Berggren is himself a Maker so I don't think he'd deliberately try to push this group of users away from EAGLE. Hopefully I am right, we'll have to see how things play out...

It sounds a bit ingenuous this sentence. The fact that Matt is a maker himself I think this does not mean nothing. One thing are the personal aptitudes and another the business, especially when it involves a big company. As far as I know (maybe you know personally Matt) he chat with us representing Eagle, not just his own personal opinions.

Maybe I just have a less cynical view? Or maybe I like to try and find the positives rather than dwelling on the negatives? From what I have read, I don't think Autodesk want to push the Maker community away but I can understand why a lot won't like the cost of the new subscription model as it stands with no cheaper non-commercial version available to give makers more than the freeware version can offer. I'm hopeful they will do something more to try and mitigate this, only time will tell....

My view on EAGLE is clearly not a popular one but I've invested quite a bit into EAGLE and despite the new licensing model it's not going to be better for me to invest a whole bunch more time and money going to another tool as EAGLE works fine, and I have a v7 license to fall back on if needs be. I've not updated to v8 yet but I probably will when the newer routing features come out.

Best Regards,

Rachael

I agree completely with your last sentence here. Either buying the software outright or paying a subscription goes towards paying for the development. I'm not sure why you think I thought otherwise?

None at all, I hope you agreed It was just a confirmation; as far as you wrote, it seemed different (but I was almost sure not).

Maybe I just have a less cynical view? Or maybe I like to try and find the positives rather than dwelling on the negatives? From what I have read, I don't think Autodesk want to push the Maker community away but I can understand why a lot won't like the cost of the new subscription model as it stands with no cheaper non-commercial version available to give makers more than the freeware version can offer. I'm hopeful they will do something more to try and mitigate this, only time will tell....

 

My view on EAGLE is clearly not a popular one but I've invested quite a bit into EAGLE and despite the new licensing model it's not going to be better for me to invest a whole bunch more time and money going to another tool as EAGLE works fine, and I have a v7 license to fall back on if needs be. I've not updated to v8 yet but I probably will when the newer routing features come out.

You specific case has perfectly sense, Rachel. And you are just in the right direction, IMHO, to optimise and get the maximum possible from your previous investments. I don't think your view on Eagle is not popular, especially as it has perfect justifications. The point is - and this IS the point of this discussion as far as I see - that this licensing method is not so "politically correct" in my opinion, just because of there are many users like you that are in front of an obliged choice. But there are better ways to affiliate customers I think. What will make the difference is what happens with the trend of new users of this platform.

BTW, despite these two options, EAGLE and Altium what alternatives do you think are at the same level and reliable?

Enrico

Hi Enrico,

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

You specific case has perfectly sense, Rachel. And you are just in the right direction, IMHO, to optimise and get the maximum possible from your previous investments. I don't think your view on Eagle is not popular, especially as it has perfect justifications. The point is - and this IS the point of this discussion as far as I see - that this licensing method is not so "politically correct" in my opinion, just because of there are many users like you that are in front of an obliged choice. But there are better ways to affiliate customers I think. What will make the difference is what happens with the trend of new users of this platform.

Agreed. For me the subscription only model without the ability to make it perpetual for versions up to your current version after your subscription expires is not good and it's the main stick Altium is using to leverage converting EAGLE users to Altium (both Designer for pro's and CS for lower end). Autodesk could fix this and confiscate Altiums stick by giving us that perpetual possibility and IMHO it would increase their revenue as it wouldn't reduce then number of subscriptions, it would gain a lot more. They could do it in such a way that the cost of making perpetual was reduced the longer you'd been an active subscriber so people wouldn't take out a 1 month subscription just so they could get a cheap perpetual license. Fix that and add in a couple of other licensing options I highlighted above and most of the issues will be resolved and we can get back to being a largely happy EAGLE community once more.....

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

BTW, despite these two options, EAGLE and Altium what alternatives do you think are at the same level and reliable?

I don't know much of any other tools at the level of EAGLE or Circuit Studio. There is KiCAD which I think still needs work to be a proper contender (but is free, cross platform and currently has some great features that EAGLE doesn't in terms of routing), there is DipTrace but the Mac version is the windows version wrapped up in Wine which is just not right. Altium Designer is a big step up from where EAGLE is currently and the competitive products there are from Mentor Graphics (e.g. Expedition, PADS, Boardstation, etc) or Cadence (e.g. Allegro). In between these there is OrCAD which is nearer to EAGLE end than the Altium end. It's ok, I have used it previously and it works but it wasn't without it's issues if I recall and again it's Windows only.

So for me the most reliable option is still EAGLE (assuming they fix the crash causing bugs and linux incompatibilities they introduced at v8.0.0!) and if the new routing engine and all the other features that have been touted in various posts come to fruition, then it'll take a big leap forward in closing the gap to the high end tools in the next 6-12 months. There are a lot of "if's" there, but I think there are a lot of opportunities if Autodesk step up and sort things out properly, both in terms of licensing concessions as far as already promised (and maybe hopefully a little bit more!) and in terms of adding high end functionality.

Best Regards,

Rachael