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Hi Shabaz,

frankly I am seriously approaching the Altium package just now so I can't say not so much in this moment. But about the new Eagle licensing system I am almost convinced that this move is just to exclude from their business (no matter if it is the right choice, it's up to them) all the Makers, personal users etc. etc. keeping the big companies and more interesting clients (maybe)

Kcad is the right option for makers, probably, but approaching a more professional need - despite the complexity of the PCB - I suppose that a one-shot investment for a complete tool maybe the worth.

Enrico

Hi Enrico,

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

I have used Eagle on Windows for some years, it is not so blocking for me as I am working on Mac as well as you do, but I used too a number of VM on it. Managing with projects involving hardware and firmware development it is almost impossible. As far as I know, just to mention few, Rhino for 3D printing design, AVR Studio, Cypress PSoC programming, Mill Machine control etc. etc. needs windows.

Yes there are still tools that require windows but I have managed to largely purge it from my workflow .... except when I need to use DxDesigner (my employer has this) and have to manage our Active Directory

From your list:

Rhino is available for Mac (https://www.rhino3d.com/mac) as are Slic3r and Cura (not on your list but 3D printing related).

Yes AVR studio doesn't work but use avrdude (install from homebrew) and any other decent IDE on Mac works just fine.

Cypress PSoC, yep it looks like their tools are Windows only.... I'll avoid this then....

I don't know about your specific milling machine and what software you use but there are Mac tools e.g. https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/ricecnc/id555340658?mt=12 or http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMeshCamEasyCAMSoftware.html

Other types of tools that I use are FPGA tools and Xilinx, Altera and Microsemi (Actel) toolsets are all available under Linux as is the ModelSim simulator. They work better under Linux IMHO.

Arduino Studio is available for Mac/Linux as well as Windows as is MPLAB for PIC's. Now Microchip own Atmel I wonder if they might help facilitate AVR studio being migrated to the other platforms too.

There are just loads of tools now available that don't require Windows that it is now largely possible to avoid Windows for hardware/firmware/software design. If EAGLE went away though my only option for board design would be KiCAD and I am not happy that this is mature enough of fully featured enough to be a viable option for professional work. I think Mentor Graphics might do a Linux version of one of their most horrendously expensive PCB tools but that's about it and I couldn't justify the cost there at all.

Best Regards,

Rachael

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

But about the new Eagle licensing system I am almost convinced that this move is just to exclude from their business (no matter if it is the right choice, it's up to them) all the Makers, personal users etc. etc. keeping the big companies and more interesting clients (maybe)

I'm not convinced here. Matt Berggren is himself a Maker so I don't think he'd deliberately try to push this group of users away from EAGLE. Hopefully I am right, we'll have to see how things play out....

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

Kcad is the right option for makers, probably, but approaching a more professional need - despite the complexity of the PCB - I suppose that a one-shot investment for a complete tool maybe the worth.

It's only a one shot investment if you are happy to not have any support / updates after the initial one year subscription you get with your Altium license. After that you still need to pay an annual subscription to have continued access to support and new versions, even bug fix releases, so if you come across a show stopper of a bug and you are out of maintenance then you're out of luck until you shell out money to get back onto maintenance and this usually costs more when you've let it lapse.

It's only a one shot investment if you are happy to not have any support / updates after the initial one year subscription you get with your Altium license. After that you still need to pay an annual subscription to have continued access to support and new versions, even bug fix releases, so if you come across a show stopper of a bug and you are out of maintenance then you're out of luck until you shell out money to get back onto maintenance and this usually costs more when you've let it lapse

Rachel, frankly your vision sounds a bit too dramatic. First, it's only a one shot investment, right; this means that - if the software fits your expectations - that it will work at least as you need. One year for bugs and updates is not too short, you have all the time you want to use proficiently (or not) the package, explore it in depth and find all possible unlisted bugs. It is very difficult IMHO that a "living" software maintained and updated can have a bug that is not solved in one year !

Keeping the parallel with EAGLE, you had something very similar. I bought it version 4 some years ago, the I was supported until version 5.6 (if I am not wrong) then I discovered that version 6 was including a couple of very useful features for some of my projects. I searched everywhere how to upgrade the version and - it sounds honest to me - told me that this version needed a new license at a reasonable discounted cost. The same when I moved to version 7 (that Element14 generously offered me one year limited time license). Software development costs, and it is reasonable that users pay for a serious maintenance and real upgrade.

About what you say

I'm not convinced here. Matt Berggren is himself a Maker so I don't think he'd deliberately try to push this group of users away from EAGLE. Hopefully I am right, we'll have to see how things play out...

It sounds a bit ingenuous this sentence. The fact that Matt is a maker himself I think this does not mean nothing. One thing are the personal aptitudes and another the business, especially when it involves a big company. As far as I know (maybe you know personally Matt) he chat with us representing Eagle, not just his own personal opinions.

Enrico

Hi Enrico,

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

It's only a one shot investment if you are happy to not have any support / updates after the initial one year subscription you get with your Altium license. After that you still need to pay an annual subscription to have continued access to support and new versions, even bug fix releases, so if you come across a show stopper of a bug and you are out of maintenance then you're out of luck until you shell out money to get back onto maintenance and this usually costs more when you've let it lapse

Rachel, frankly your vision sounds a bit too dramatic. First, it's only a one shot investment, right; this means that - if the software fits your expectations - that it will work at least as you need. One year for bugs and updates is not too short, you have all the time you want to use proficiently (or not) the package, explore it in depth and find all possible unlisted bugs. It is very difficult IMHO that a "living" software maintained and updated can have a bug that is not solved in one year !

So 11 months into your subscription they bring out a great feature which enables you to do something you couldn't do previously so you upgrade to that. Then you start a new project and by the time you get to implementing what you needed that feature for, your subscription has since expired. A month or so into a large design you find that this feature has an error you didn't previously spot that makes it not work. What do you do?

How about if you've just been happy with your version for a while because the boards you've done haven't been complex but a while after the subscription has lapsed, maybe even years, you have to do something more complex. All of a sudden you find the bugs in the tool which you didn't spot because you weren't pushing the limits of the tool. You do some searching and find the issue you have is a known issue fixed in a version after your maintenance expired so you are not eligible to download it. What do you do?

And yes, I have seen these exact situations.

For any professional who depends on being able to keep the tools working for their livelihood then not having an active maintenance could be very costly. This is where Altium, Mentor, Cadence etc all cash in as they know their users are very likely to want to be on active maintenance. Look at the chart posted by Dave Jones on the EEVBlog of how Altiums financing breaks down and you'll see they make more from subscriptions each year than selling new seats of their tools.

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

Keeping the parallel with EAGLE, you had something very similar. I bought it version 4 some years ago, the I was supported until version 5.6 (if I am not wrong) then I discovered that version 6 was including a couple of very useful features for some of my projects. I searched everywhere how to upgrade the version and - it sounds honest to me - told me that this version needed a new license at a reasonable discounted cost. The same when I moved to version 7 (that Element14 generously offered me one year limited time license). Software development costs, and it is reasonable that users pay for a serious maintenance and real upgrade.

If you had a 5.6 license then you most likely paid for v5 as well as v4 unless you bought v4 very shortly before v5 was released and then I suspect they gave those users who had bought a v4 license just before the release an upgrade.

I agree completely with your last sentence here. Either buying the software outright or paying a subscription goes towards paying for the development. I'm not sure why you think I thought otherwise?

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

I'm not convinced here. Matt Berggren is himself a Maker so I don't think he'd deliberately try to push this group of users away from EAGLE. Hopefully I am right, we'll have to see how things play out...

It sounds a bit ingenuous this sentence. The fact that Matt is a maker himself I think this does not mean nothing. One thing are the personal aptitudes and another the business, especially when it involves a big company. As far as I know (maybe you know personally Matt) he chat with us representing Eagle, not just his own personal opinions.

Maybe I just have a less cynical view? Or maybe I like to try and find the positives rather than dwelling on the negatives? From what I have read, I don't think Autodesk want to push the Maker community away but I can understand why a lot won't like the cost of the new subscription model as it stands with no cheaper non-commercial version available to give makers more than the freeware version can offer. I'm hopeful they will do something more to try and mitigate this, only time will tell....

My view on EAGLE is clearly not a popular one but I've invested quite a bit into EAGLE and despite the new licensing model it's not going to be better for me to invest a whole bunch more time and money going to another tool as EAGLE works fine, and I have a v7 license to fall back on if needs be. I've not updated to v8 yet but I probably will when the newer routing features come out.

Best Regards,

Rachael

I agree completely with your last sentence here. Either buying the software outright or paying a subscription goes towards paying for the development. I'm not sure why you think I thought otherwise?

None at all, I hope you agreed It was just a confirmation; as far as you wrote, it seemed different (but I was almost sure not).

Maybe I just have a less cynical view? Or maybe I like to try and find the positives rather than dwelling on the negatives? From what I have read, I don't think Autodesk want to push the Maker community away but I can understand why a lot won't like the cost of the new subscription model as it stands with no cheaper non-commercial version available to give makers more than the freeware version can offer. I'm hopeful they will do something more to try and mitigate this, only time will tell....

 

My view on EAGLE is clearly not a popular one but I've invested quite a bit into EAGLE and despite the new licensing model it's not going to be better for me to invest a whole bunch more time and money going to another tool as EAGLE works fine, and I have a v7 license to fall back on if needs be. I've not updated to v8 yet but I probably will when the newer routing features come out.

You specific case has perfectly sense, Rachel. And you are just in the right direction, IMHO, to optimise and get the maximum possible from your previous investments. I don't think your view on Eagle is not popular, especially as it has perfect justifications. The point is - and this IS the point of this discussion as far as I see - that this licensing method is not so "politically correct" in my opinion, just because of there are many users like you that are in front of an obliged choice. But there are better ways to affiliate customers I think. What will make the difference is what happens with the trend of new users of this platform.

BTW, despite these two options, EAGLE and Altium what alternatives do you think are at the same level and reliable?

Enrico

Hi Enrico,

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

You specific case has perfectly sense, Rachel. And you are just in the right direction, IMHO, to optimise and get the maximum possible from your previous investments. I don't think your view on Eagle is not popular, especially as it has perfect justifications. The point is - and this IS the point of this discussion as far as I see - that this licensing method is not so "politically correct" in my opinion, just because of there are many users like you that are in front of an obliged choice. But there are better ways to affiliate customers I think. What will make the difference is what happens with the trend of new users of this platform.

Agreed. For me the subscription only model without the ability to make it perpetual for versions up to your current version after your subscription expires is not good and it's the main stick Altium is using to leverage converting EAGLE users to Altium (both Designer for pro's and CS for lower end). Autodesk could fix this and confiscate Altiums stick by giving us that perpetual possibility and IMHO it would increase their revenue as it wouldn't reduce then number of subscriptions, it would gain a lot more. They could do it in such a way that the cost of making perpetual was reduced the longer you'd been an active subscriber so people wouldn't take out a 1 month subscription just so they could get a cheap perpetual license. Fix that and add in a couple of other licensing options I highlighted above and most of the issues will be resolved and we can get back to being a largely happy EAGLE community once more.....

Enrico Miglino wrote:

 

BTW, despite these two options, EAGLE and Altium what alternatives do you think are at the same level and reliable?

I don't know much of any other tools at the level of EAGLE or Circuit Studio. There is KiCAD which I think still needs work to be a proper contender (but is free, cross platform and currently has some great features that EAGLE doesn't in terms of routing), there is DipTrace but the Mac version is the windows version wrapped up in Wine which is just not right. Altium Designer is a big step up from where EAGLE is currently and the competitive products there are from Mentor Graphics (e.g. Expedition, PADS, Boardstation, etc) or Cadence (e.g. Allegro). In between these there is OrCAD which is nearer to EAGLE end than the Altium end. It's ok, I have used it previously and it works but it wasn't without it's issues if I recall and again it's Windows only.

So for me the most reliable option is still EAGLE (assuming they fix the crash causing bugs and linux incompatibilities they introduced at v8.0.0!) and if the new routing engine and all the other features that have been touted in various posts come to fruition, then it'll take a big leap forward in closing the gap to the high end tools in the next 6-12 months. There are a lot of "if's" there, but I think there are a lot of opportunities if Autodesk step up and sort things out properly, both in terms of licensing concessions as far as already promised (and maybe hopefully a little bit more!) and in terms of adding high end functionality.

Best Regards,

Rachael

I really like how this debate has remained cordial and respectful, despite differing points of view.

I created a poll to try and capture the spectrum of opinions:

Which CAD Licensing Model Is Preferred?

Greetings Camaryn Bolton,

I just started a new job where we use Eagle. I would like to discuss switching my entire crew to Circuit Studio, how do I contact you?

Eugene