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Raspberry Pi Forum RG1 1.8v regulator
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Related

RG1 1.8v regulator

Former Member
Former Member over 13 years ago

Ok, so in a different thread I threatened to remove RG1 and do some current measurements on it's output after seeing those thermal images that show it's not generating any heat...

 

Well, I did it tonight. Some photos here: https://picasaweb.google.com/selsinork/RPi18v

 

The jumper pins in the output let me either just put a jumper on and verify the Pi boots ok, or wire a multimeter in series to get some current readings.

 

The results were interesting to say the least. I had to go back and check I was reading the multimeter correctly, that it wasn't broken etc.

 

On initial power up I see a negative current for a second or so which then reverses to about 0.5mA (yes half a milliamp, that's not a typo) for a few seconds while we get the first sd-card accesses. Once we're booted and sitting at the login prompt the current reading fluctuates from around 0.001mA to maybe 0.04mA. 

 

I'm using the 40mA range on a decent Fluke multimeter, so I've no reason to doubt the results. There's obviously going to be some inaccuracy down at that level due to length of meter leads etc, but the result is fairly clear.  You'll understand why I was checking the meter was working and I was reading it correctly though image

 

 

So from there onto the next test, lets try completely disconnecting RG1 and see if the Pi boots while using the LAN9512 1.8v 'output'.  Yes it does! 

 

I think that's reasonably good indication that jamodio got it spot on, the lan9512 shouldn't be connected to the 1.8v plane and it's heat problems are going to be largely due to supplying current on it's 1.8v filter pin that it was never designed to do.

 

So anyone willing to pull RG1 off a Pi and verify my results ?

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to Former Member

    Well IMHO the simple fact that you can take RG1 off the board and have the Pi still work is good enough proof that there's a problem.

     

    I don't expect the RPF to listen, we've seen what happens to anyone suggesting there's a design flaw over on their forum. I think the best we can hope for is that Pete is still watching here and might take a look.

     

    Unless you have some decent technical contact within farnell/element14 who can objectively assess what we've found and then arrange an official approach to the RPF through avenues not available to us I don't see how to do much more.

    Even with an official statement from SMSC you still need to get past the PR dept and get it into the hands of an engineer who's prepared to listen.

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  • johnbeetem
    johnbeetem over 13 years ago

    People have reported very different IC3 (LAN9512) temperatures at the RasPi forum, which many ascribe to uncalibrated "digital" temperature sensors and I've suggested is due to how well IC3's ground pad is soldered.  I wonder if some of this variance is caused by different RG1 threshold voltages, where some RasPis generate 1.8V using RG1 and others using IC3, depending on who manufactured RG1?

     

    Does anyone know if IC3's 1.8V is generated linearly or by a switching regulator?  If it's a switching regulator you should see ripple on a 'scope.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to johnbeetem

    hard to be 100% sure, the datasheet isn't the best, and there's some stuff that coule be a switching regulator on the schematics..  but down at 20mV on the scope and I'm not seeing the sort of thing that's characteristic of a switching regulator, so I'd go with the core regulator being linear.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago

    I couldn't resist a little hardware hacking on a Saturday morning.

     

    My LAN9512 isn't running hot, only luke warm I would say, but I can guarantee a system hang by copying a file from an nfs mount to a usb flash drive in 10-20 seconds. USB keyboard is a little glitchy too. Tried 10W iPad charger and Dell monitor with integrated USB hub for power also without keyboard over ssh. That's motivation enough for me to tinker.

     

    Carefully, I cut the circuit traces from pins 15 and 38 on LAN9512 and the 1.8V side of C29 to the vias. I then very carefully soldered some wire between these three points. This more closely resembles how the circuit should be (minus the 100nF caps). (The 9512 reference design says 4u7 should be by pin 38 btw) See photo:

     

    image

     

    Measurements taken before show 1804mV on both RG1 and C29. After modification I have 1797mV on RG1 and 1809mV on C29, so I am confident the regulators are now isolated. The effectiveness of my filter circuit is a little more dubious.

     

    Didn't fix the system hang copying over LAN to USB, but I can copy from LAN to the SD card (didn't think to test that previously). At least my Pi still works.

     

    Now that VDD18CORE is isolated from RG1 I can measure the current drain on RG1. More results to follow.

     

    [edit] After lifting RG1 and placing my exceedingly cheap multimeter in series with the output I measure about 20mA briefly, then 80mA briefly then 60-70mA for a while while booting then finally settling down to 50.5mA at the login prompt (presumably, no video attached, only power). Would have been nice to take a measurement before, I know, not very scientific of me.[/edit]

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to johnbeetem

    John,

    > I wonder if some of this variance is caused by different RG1 threshold voltages...

     

    another possibility is some variation in the LAN chips, which have been

    seen to have different markings.  I can't decode them all, but possibly

    the last two characters, sg or tw, indicates Singapore vs. Taiwan factories.

     

    There is a list of boards and their variations here, but unfortunately there's

    no column for how hot the chips get.

     

    http://elinux.org/RaspberryPi_Boards

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to Former Member

    Selsinork,

     

    >Unless you have some decent technical contact within farnell/element14 who can objectively assess what we've found and then arrange an official approach to the RPF through avenues not available to us I don't see how to do much more.

     

    Maybe Drew is following this thread and can get the right people involved.  I'm convinced that Pete isn't listening.  I think anyone who does pay attention will need to get clarification from SMSC, so might as well get the ball rolling on that.  Otherwise, I can imagine what a conversation with tech support might be like.

     

    tech support:  how can I help you?

    customer:  I removed RG1 and my board still works.  That seems to be proof that it's broken.

    tech support;  you say your board still works?

    customer:  yup.

    tech support: well, we're here to help customers whose board isn't working.

    customer: but I removed RG1.

    tech support: well, we're here to help customers who haven't removed components.

    customer: but the board runs hot

    tech support: we advise allowing plenty of ventilation.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to Former Member

    I'm convinced that Pete isn't listening.

    Yeah, I checked his profie on here yesterday. Doesn't look like he's posted anything for 3+ months.

     

    My only two thoughts were to either PM Pete directly on here, (but it seems that you need the recipient to approve you as a contact before you can do that), or to try a pm to Eben over on the other forums. The problem is going to be picking a subject line that doesn't get lost in the noise, and I'm an engineer so useless at that sort of thing image

     

    You're right that the tech support route just isn't going  to work.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to Former Member

    I just posted a summary of the issue in the experts forum here:

     

    http://www.element14.com/community/thread/19261?tstart=0

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to Former Member

    are you able to measure the temperature of the lan9512 with this mod in place?   I'm only getting arount 48C on any of thr Pi I have, which I don't consider too bad, certainly not the 'blisteringly hot' others have reported..  So either I have asbestos fingertips from too many years of burning them with soldering irons, or there's some other factor involved.

     

    Ideally we need to find one that runs hot, or how to duplicate that condition, and try this mod on it to see what difference it can make.

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  • Former Member
    Former Member over 13 years ago in reply to Former Member

    another possibility is some variation in the LAN chips, which have been

    seen to have different markings.  I can't decode them all, but possibly

    the last two characters, sg or tw, indicates Singapore vs. Taiwan factories.

    My first board - one out of the first 2K built by the RPF - has this

     

    LAN9512-JZX

    B1134-A1B17

    8R147769B

    STA-SG

     

    runs at approx 48C give or take the variance of an MCP9803 i2c sensor stuck to the top

     

    The newer ones are as follows (all from approx the same time)

     

    B1217-A1B17

    8R150409A

    CTI-TW

     

    B1218-A1B17

    8R150419A

    CTI-TW

     

    B1218-A1B17

    8R150419A

    CTI-TW

     

    B1217-A1B17

    8R150409A

    CTI-TW

     

    B1218-A1B17

    8R150419A

    CTI-TW

     

    B1217-A1B17

    8R150409A

    CTI-TW

     

    untested for temperature so far..

     

     

    and the one I modified:

     

    B1218-A1B17

    8R150303B

    CTI-TW

     

    it appears that this one might be running slightly hotter, I've seen 50.5C on the sensor, but I can't be sure that's not down to how good the contact from sensor to chip is - I'm just taping the sensor down after all..

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