512MB deliberate deception?

> They have explained that this was done because they were afraid that their sales would dry up because many potential customers would prefer not to buy the 256MB version if a 512MB version [...]

Commonly know as "The Osborne Effect" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect).

The bump up to 512MB was certainly expected by myself--- the 256 MiB part would be EoL eventually, and even before then, the cost of the 512 part would match on production price.

I think it was the Android porting announcement that blew the cover on the impending memory upgrade-- there was no way a 256MB RPi could demo Android like it did, and when they wouldn't give out much details of the porting effort, it certainly suggested that they had 512 MB hardware, even if hand-spun engineering test boards.

The reference to the "Osborne effect" in this case is another piece of BS and excuse from RPF for poor planning and execution.

It can certainly apply if the distributors had a substantial volume of units in stock, which as far as we know is not the case, also if they had an important number of 256MB memory chips they don't go to scrap since are planned to be used for the model A.

So I agree that instead of providing BS or misinformation it could be acceptable if from the get go they say "our policy is not to announce blah blah."

It was almost like large flashing neon sign that the 512MB was coming when they started talking and showing some promising screens of Android 4.0.

One thing I don't understand is why the Rev 2.0 schematics have not been released yet ? Afraid that we may find something wrong again ?

Still too much focus on hype and self promotion, poor execution and lack of transparency, which creates a shadow on any technical progress.

My .02

 

Interesting that Eben says in that post that the DNC pins are up for grabs again.. 

 

Especially given the note under P1 on the schematic "All Pins are Fully Defined as Shown No Reserved Pins". So as there are no reserved / DNC pins we can just ignore his statement ?

> I think we can also surmise why the schematics weren't released earlier.. The reference to the 512Mb PoP.

brilliant!

That also fits with my theory that rev 2.0 was intended to be 512MB

from the start, which explains the mystery of why such a big jump in

revision number for just small stuff like mounting holes.

http://www.element14.com/community/thread/20330?tstart=0&start=9

"My, Grandma - what big memory you have!"

"All the better for porting Android, my dear..."

The concensus from the admittedly small number of respondents to my thread over at the other place seems to be that even if Android is just an excuse for a giant Trojan then that's fine because all the other guys are just as bad and we can't resist the lure of the shiny things."

Jeez, you couldn't make it up. How can ethical software developers ever hope to compete when users just don't care about trifles like security, anonymity and freedom? The folks at Firefox et al (including the providers of your favourite flavour of free operating system) might as well pull down the shutters and let the beast take it's pleasure. What on earth has Android got to do with education anyway? Perhaps Google have insisted that Gove specify it...

Still, perhaps all those extra hardware sales and subsequent apps will mean that the Foundation will be able to afford to hire a tech, instead of relying on Gordon to fix the split transactions thing for free and in his spare time.

It all absolutely reeks in my opinion.

are you talking about this thread?

http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=20756

Because reading the article I gotta agree with what the others are saying.  You're taking a single case study in which some developers built a speacial program to use man in the middle attacks on android devices that had attached to a fake wifi hotspot which was only successful on >8% of the 13K free apps they tested.  You're applying blame to google for other developer's bad programing.  What's more you're applying a response that was never said to those that responded.  What gives?

The point he is trying to make is that, while the Pi isn't ready for it's educational goal yet, suddenly the foundation seems to put most of it's energy into running android on it. So, how does android fit in the educational charity goal of the foundation? No doubt it will give sales another boost.

I don't think they will be able to hire a tech with the extra income as they will likely use it for marketing and promotion.

Jonathan Garrish wrote:

 

"My, Grandma - what big memory you have!"

 

"All the better for porting Android, my dear..."

 

The concensus from the admittedly small number of respondents to my thread over at the other place seems to be that even if Android is just an excuse for a giant Trojan then that's fine because all the other guys are just as bad and we can't resist the lure of the shiny things."

 

Jeez, you couldn't make it up. How can ethical software developers ever hope to compete when users just don't care about trifles like security, anonymity and freedom? The folks at Firefox et al (including the providers of your favourite flavour of free operating system) might as well pull down the shutters and let the beast take it's pleasure. What on earth has Android got to do with education anyway? Perhaps Google have insisted that Gove specify it...

 

Still, perhaps all those extra hardware sales and subsequent apps will mean that the Foundation will be able to afford to hire a tech, instead of relying on Gordon to fix the split transactions thing for free and in his spare time.

 

It all absolutely reeks in my opinion.

Man, you read stuff in to people posts that just isn't there!  What the others said is pretty much spot on. Anyone can write an Android app that is BAD, just like they can on iOS or Windows. You are accusing Gogole of something on the flimsiest evidence! Chill dude!

If you are indeed an ethical software developer, write ANdroid apps that don't leak. Pretty simple mate.

And as for Android on the Raspbery PI, just another OS, if you don't like it use Linux - that the recomended OS and that isn't likely to change - Android on a Raspberry PI would not be suitable for teaching programming, so presumably is well low on the foundations list of sh!t to do. Gotta fix that USB first. Reading threads there, the Foundation aint putting much effort in to Android at all - it's everyone else that keeps asking for it. Christ knows why. Pointless exercise on a device like that.

Still, for some paranoids, everything reeks.

Luc Cool wrote:

 

The point he is trying to make is that, while the Pi isn't ready for it's educational goal yet, suddenly the foundation seems to put most of it's energy into running android on it. So, how does android fit in the educational charity goal of the foundation? No doubt it will give sales another boost.

I don't think they will be able to hire a tech with the extra income as they will likely use it for marketing and promotion.

Evidence man - where the evidence they are putting most of its enerygy in to ANdroid. As far as I can see there ain't any evidence AT ALL. You are making it up to for prove a point that isn;t there.

Bill

Just be patience. They showed some demo's months ago.

The 512Mb also was a rumour till they arrived in the wild.

It's not like they put much energy in the usb problem.

Yeah right, I know, it's a charity organisation and they have no payed employees...

You want to know why people want android? Angry birds, what else?

Billy Thornton wrote:

 

And as for Android on the Raspbery PI, just another OS, if you don't like it use Linux - [that's] the recomended OS and that isn't likely to change...

FYI Android is a user layer that runs on top of Linux, so if you're using Android you're using Linux.  The recommended RasPi OS is a GNU/Linux operating system.

"A trifling matter, and fussy of me, but we all have our little ways." [Eeyore]

John Beetem wrote:

 

Billy Thornton wrote:

 

And as for Android on the Raspbery PI, just another OS, if you don't like it use Linux - [that's] the recomended OS and that isn't likely to change...

FYI Android is a user layer that runs on top of Linux, so if you're using Android you're using Linux.  The recommended RasPi OS is a GNU/Linux operating system.

 

"A trifling matter, and fussy of me, but we all have our little ways." [Eeyore]

Isn't that a bit a semantics game?  Yeah Android is  based on (runs ontop of) Linux, it's locked down and even once you unlock it you have extremely limited access to the true underlying system making it (imho) not useful for programming.  Sure Billy didn't word it perfectly, but there's no need to pretend like we all don't get that he's talking about distro choices.  You want a distro for media centers?  Get one of the XBMC flavors. you want one just to have Android on the device?  Then get android.  You want an educational one?  Then use one of the standard distros (Rasbian, Arch, etc) and make use of the educational software they've already put on there.  I must confess though that I'v'e seen more talk about their educational work (or perhaps more accurate more posts of them directly educating and teaching kids) than the one post they made about android that others are working on.  That said, I would very much like to see more news on their educational side of things.  I get that you tell people when someone gives you an award, can't blame them for that, and sure someone does something cool with your device and you do a post about that, but it'd be nice to get more updates on the education side of things.  Maybe we'll get some news on that front with the education release that is said to be coming at the end of the year.

John Beetem wrote:

 

Billy Thornton wrote:

 

And as for Android on the Raspbery PI, just another OS, if you don't like it use Linux - [that's] the recomended OS and that isn't likely to change...

FYI Android is a user layer that runs on top of Linux, so if you're using Android you're using Linux.  The recommended RasPi OS is a GNU/Linux operating system.

 

"A trifling matter, and fussy of me, but we all have our little ways." [Eeyore]

Isn't that a bit a semantics game?  Yeah Android is  based on (runs ontop of) Linux, it's locked down and even once you unlock it you have extremely limited access to the true underlying system making it (imho) not useful for programming.  Sure Billy didn't word it perfectly, but there's no need to pretend like we all don't get that he's talking about distro choices.  You want a distro for media centers?  Get one of the XBMC flavors. you want one just to have Android on the device?  Then get android.  You want an educational one?  Then use one of the standard distros (Rasbian, Arch, etc) and make use of the educational software they've already put on there.  I must confess though that I'v'e seen more talk about their educational work (or perhaps more accurate more posts of them directly educating and teaching kids) than the one post they made about android that others are working on.  That said, I would very much like to see more news on their educational side of things.  I get that you tell people when someone gives you an award, can't blame them for that, and sure someone does something cool with your device and you do a post about that, but it'd be nice to get more updates on the education side of things.  Maybe we'll get some news on that front with the education release that is said to be coming at the end of the year.

mynameisJim wrote:

 

 

 

 

... Maybe we'll get some news on that front with the education release that is said to be coming at the end of the year.

At the February 2012 launch, they said the educational launch "will happen later in 2012".

http://www.raspberrypi.org/launch.html

Now the FAQ says "later in 2013".

http://www.raspberrypi.org/faqs

So it seems there has been around a 1-year slip.

The RPi User's Guide Table of Contents gives an indication of the intended usage,

http://www.amazon.com/Raspberry-User-Guide-Gareth-Halfacree/dp/111846446X

where Part II "Using the Pi as a Media Centre, Productivity Machine and Web Server" comes before Part III "Programming and Hacking".

@ free.quark: I'm amused to note that the Amazon blurb for the User Guide reckons that "it can be charged like a smartphone". Brilliant!

@ billybob: Of course the "if you don't like it then take a hike" approach is fine and dandy if you're dealing with a product from a company unreceptive to any kind of feedback, but if you were unhappy about e.g. your country's policy on a particular issue would you up sticks and go live somewhere else, or would you fight to get it changed? Or would you just be a sheep and pretend that everything's ok? Or maybe you're lucky enough to never find yoursef disagreeing with anything...

@ everyone else: I fear that some may have missed the point. I wasn't judging Android on the strength of a particular exploit (which isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things), but was using it as a mechanism to ask some rather more fundamental questions:

1) Why the obvious effort to get the Android port done asap rather than toss official resources at removing the remaining wrinkles?

* Is Android fundamental to the educational goal - i.e. has someone decided that desktop Linux isn't suitable for whatever reason?

* Is it for maximising revenue? Will some of this extra revenue get reinvested in improving the product, or will the Foundation continue to call "community fix required" when it suits them?

* Is the adoption of Android simply at the behest of one of the manufacturing partners?

* Will the more interesting stuff that people are currently doing get marginalised in favour of consumer level whatnot like apps, media players and browsing? Let's face it - there's no shortage of applications for these activities already, so why not supersede the current hardware with a Pi rev.3 without GPIO (because cheaper is always better), mebbe add a budget resistive touchscreen and put it in a tablet case? Ideal for the educational goal and for many in the community, surely? Perhaps hardcore hackers will find themselves migrating to another platform and others will have to choose whether to chuck their Pi on ebay and follow "the knowledge base", or stick with with a product that is no longer focussed on what they originally bought it for.

2) Would people be comfortable with Android as an official operating system for what is supposedly a child's educational computer anyway? Ignoring the possibility of exploits (which can obviously happen with any OS) Android exists only as a marketing and datamining tool. That's fine IMO if you are an adult and understand the implications, but I'm a little uneasy about it all. Furthermore I'm perplexed that while the mere mention of MS / Apple is enough to raise hoots of derision amongst the average nerd, Android can seemingly do no wrong. Or do we all subconsciously accept that it's a giant Trojan but put aside all concerns about privacy because we can't resist the shiny things?

I check out the Foundation front page occasionally and I can't help thinking "Where the heck is this all going?" Sifting through the posts regarding "dinners / awards / hacker fests / holidays wot we did this week", acknowledgements of updates that are already in the wild (and some interesting applications dreamed up by community folks) I can't help noticing a dirth of substance regarding the actual educational goal. There's the occasional post about some kids getting to test drive a few Pi, but is that it? Where's the roadmap / wishlist / musings? I'm not expecting "Monday: had discussions with Michael Gove over beer and sandwiches" type stuff, but it just feels to me that this little board now exists only for itself.

Or am I taking it all to seriously? Should I act like the average morally bankrupt consumer and just be thankful that there's another bit of hardware to tinker with and not keep asking darn fool questions?

Regarding Android = Linux: In terms of 1's and 0's then yes. In terms of philosophy then no.

Jonathan Garrish wrote:

 

  @ everyone else: I fear that some may have missed the point. I wasn't judging Android on the strength of a particular exploit (which isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things), but was using it as a mechanism to ask some rather more fundamental questions:

 

1) Why the obvious effort to get the Android port done asap rather than toss official resources at removing the remaining wrinkles?

 

I suppose that's the thing I'm not following in this logic.  What obvious effort is everyone refering to?  I can find a single post 7 pages back on the Raspberry Pi Foundation's site that mentions that a third party is working to get android moved over and everything else I read is fans clamoring around it.  Or is that what you mean?  All this obvious effort (by fans) to get the Android port done.  If that's the case I largely agree with what followed.

mynameisJim wrote:

 

Jonathan Garrish wrote:

 

  @ everyone else: I fear that some may have missed the point. I wasn't judging Android on the strength of a particular exploit (which isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things), but was using it as a mechanism to ask some rather more fundamental questions:

 

1) Why the obvious effort to get the Android port done asap rather than toss official resources at removing the remaining wrinkles?

 

 

I suppose that's the thing I'm not following in this logic.  What obvious effort is everyone refering to?  I can find a single post 7 pages back on the Raspberry Pi Foundation's site that mentions that a third party is working to get android moved over and everything else I read is fans clamoring around it.  Or is that what you mean?  All this obvious effort (by fans) to get the Android port done.  If that's the case I largely agree with what followed.

It was on the Pi blog:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1700

Broadcom developer Naren Sankar is namechecked here:

http://phys.org/news/2012-08-raspberry-pi-android.html

So no, it's not just an unofficial community thing.

Jonathan Garrish wrote:

 

mynameisJim wrote:

 

Jonathan Garrish wrote:

 

  @ everyone else: I fear that some may have missed the point. I wasn't judging Android on the strength of a particular exploit (which isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things), but was using it as a mechanism to ask some rather more fundamental questions:

 

1) Why the obvious effort to get the Android port done asap rather than toss official resources at removing the remaining wrinkles?

 

 

I suppose that's the thing I'm not following in this logic.  What obvious effort is everyone refering to?  I can find a single post 7 pages back on the Raspberry Pi Foundation's site that mentions that a third party is working to get android moved over and everything else I read is fans clamoring around it.  Or is that what you mean?  All this obvious effort (by fans) to get the Android port done.  If that's the case I largely agree with what followed.

It was on the Pi blog:

 

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1700

 

Broadcom developer Naren Sankar is namechecked here:

 

http://phys.org/news/2012-08-raspberry-pi-android.html

 

So no, it's not just an unofficial community thing.

Broadcom is still third party (which is the exact wording I used) and that is indeed a single post, hardly an obvious effort that I keep hearing people on this board talk about.  1 person outside the confines of the RPF hardly constitues as the RPF organizing a giant push for android.

The Foundation is Broadcom, insofar that the Pi in it's present form would never have happened without Broadcom support and development of the current product would be impossible without Broadcom's ongoing cooperation. One can't really separate the rather nebulous concept of the Foundation (which has only one full time employee after all) from the manufacturing partners either. There is no third party IMO.

I'm talking about the hardware / software side of things, rather than the educational goals of course, so I guess we're just differing on semantics (in fine forum tradition!). You state that there is little Foundation effort in an Android port and I'm not sure how much involvement the Foundation (as we currently think of it) directly have in any hardware / software decisions at all

I think its fairly obvious that I disagree with your final application, but let's go with it for the sake of argument.  One person, one post.  Or lets even say that it's a team.  A single post talking about it 3 months ago.  That's not an obvious push.  Or some big agenda to get android.  Even if I accepted your premise of Bcom = RPF, that's still just some auxiliary background noise going on

I was editing my post while you replied, so perhaps the last paragraph of my previous post will clarify my opinion (and it is just an opinion after all!). There's a couple of posts by jamesh in this thread:

http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=20688

that rather gives me the impression (I know, it's a bit vague) that there's more to the port than some amateur knocking together code on their day off.

That one person happens to be Eben Upton.

How many posts did you find about the usb issue?

I also remember him complaining about multiple android versions he had on his pc so that he couldn't locate the right one....

(Not sure anymore if it was on twitter or in a post on the forum) Maybe those weren't for the Pi, altough he doesn't seem to port Android

as his full time job for Broadcom. And what was the stuff Liz was talking about when they did benchmarks on cheap android tablets?

Time will tell I assume.

Luc Cool wrote:

Time will tell I assume.

Indeed! Nothing ever gets announced until after someone notices it in the wild anyway.