new RPi model B planned soon

If the Model A is planned for March 2013, then RPF's banner headline will have declared the Pi as the $25 computer for a whole year by then.  Isn't there a law against such blatant long-term false advertising?

Morgaine Dinova wrote:

 

If the Model A is planned for March 2013, then RPF's banner headline will have declared the Pi as the $25 computer for a whole year by then.  Isn't there a law against such blatant long-term false advertising?

coder27 is being gamesome.  The link is to a 20 Feb 2012 comment where liz promises that "you'll definitely be able to buy Model As in March".  True, she doesn't specify the year.

Hey I'm back from my hols ins Sunny SIngapore. Back to the grindstone mates!

First things first. People are forgetting the Broadcom are a fabless company i.e. they do not own any fabs, so they have to book fab time. Now, I also used to work for a fabless company, hence my sunny antipodean attitude, so I know that you only book fab time for order. You reallty really don't build stuff you don't have orders for. It cost a bloody fortune to store it, and then you might not sell it. I happen to know that a particular fabless company has been caught out in the past with excess stock, and lost a *** load of $. I cannot see Broadcom speculatively making batches of SoC's, that not good business sense. Even with some of the the Pi Foundations people working at Broadcom they weon;t have the influence to get stuff made specultively. Well, I reckon not anyway. Also, this is a minor footnote on their balance sheet - they made $2B turnover last quarter.

So what the mynnameisjim poster said is right - this is a problem with order quantities from the people making the stuff. Nothing to to with Broadcom. They could easy make enough chips - or at least TSMC could - if they got the orders. Just expect those orders to be delivered in 30 wks or whatever TSMC's current lead time is. (30wks sounds high)

Billy Thornton wrote:

 

I cannot see Broadcom speculatively making batches of SoC's, that not good business sense.

Making BCM2835 SoCs is speculative in what universe?

Would you care to suggest some viable scenario under which manufactured BCM2835 devices would not be sold as quickly as buyers can click a mouse?

It's speculative right up to the point someone orders them - until then, they are  chips sitting on a shelf in a warehouse. And look, fabless companies don't like warehouses, they like to make stuff and ship it stright to the user - it's much cheaper. That's how they work. Now I reckon they can sell a shitload, but even Apple under order stuff just in case. And remember, there is a 30wk (still don't beleive that one) lead time - that's over 6 months, a lot can happen in 6 months.

Still, as I said, this is nothing to do with Broadcoms capacity as you have been arguing, since they don't actually have ANY capacity at all. It's all contracted out, and the people they contract out to have LOTS of capacity, and will make whatever you ask. So, rather than changing the subject, absorb that information, and explain how it's not the fault of RS and Farnell's ordering too few.

Billy Thornton wrote:

 

It's speculative right up to the point someone orders them - until then, they are  chips sitting on a shelf in a warehouse.

It's not speculation when there is no uncertainty or risk involved, and you have not offered any viable scenario containing uncertainty or risk.  And the chips don't need to sit on any shelves, they can be offered in advance very trivially.  Indeed this is totally normal, no different to offering for preorder.

Still, as I said, this is nothing to do with Broadcoms capacity as you have been arguing, since they don't actually have ANY capacity at all. It's all contracted out, and the people they contract out to have LOTS of capacity, and will make whatever you ask.

You can't have it both ways.  If Broadcom's capacity is all contracted out, and the people they contract out to have LOTS of capacity, and will make whatever Broadcom asks, then Broadcom's inability to produce SoCs at a higher rate and with less lead time is even less comprehensible.  Third parties would be falling over themselves to manufacture more BCM2835 for Broadcom given the demand for Pi worldwide, because "LOTS of capacity" that is twiddling its thumbs is very costly.

That doesn't seem to be what is happening here.  Admittedly we're speculating, but some things look more likely than others, and a surplus of capacity on which to produce BCM2835 seems extraordinarily unlikely.

Morgaine Dinova wrote:

 

You can't have it both ways.  If Broadcom's capacity is all contracted out, and the people they contract out to have LOTS of capacity, and will make whatever Broadcom asks, then Broadcom's inability to produce SoCs at a higher rate and with less lead time is even less comprehensible.  Third parties would be falling over themselves to manufacture more BCM2835 for Broadcom given the demand for Pi worldwide, because "LOTS of capacity" that is twiddling its thumbs is very costly.

 

That doesn't seem to be what is happening here.  Admittedly we're speculating, but some things look more likely than others, and a surplus of capacity on which to produce BCM2835 seems extraordinarily unlikely.

And that is where the ball returns to my court.  Fabs don't want to handle excess storage (of finished product) either.  So they won't keep a high capacity either (I was quite surprised to hear that B-com did not directly fab the chip themselves though).  You're logic is backwards though, the fact they don't have their own fab facility will actually increases turn around time as they become a middleman (so to speak) in the process.  They are bound by the fab's schedule which means they really can't adjust an order at the last minute.  Which again brings us full circle to the fact that it is the responsibility of the customer to appropriately plan for the demand of a product in accordance with the suppliers schedule. It should also be noted, again, that the pi is not some big ticket item so no, fabs will not be falling over themselves to manufacture the chip.  Besides, I'm willing to bet that B-com has some very specific NDAs and contracts that prevent them from doing just that in exchange for good deals.

And you really got to get the idea that not making the BCM2835 = wasted time or a waste of capacity.  Fab plants will build no more and no less than what has been ordered.  Any time they're not making the BCM2835, they're making other chips.  Fab facilities wait for no one!  Which makes more sense to you?  Fill a big order for a customer to meet deadlines, or building some extra low cost chips in the eventuality that a customer might want some more of it before the next run?  That a waste of time material and storage space, plus the fab facility has no guarantees that the chip will still be in demand in the future.  As much as I like the pi, it could flop at any minute.  People could get tired of the USB issues, or decide they'd rather pay double and get a little bit faster android device for their media center needs.  It's insanely bad business for a fab facility to make an excess of a product that the customer hasn't ordered rather than moving things onto filling the next product that has a customer waiting right now to purchase it.

Morgaine Dinova wrote:

 

 

However, you prefer to place the blame on RS and somehow twist it to look as if an order placed by RS could magically create new fabrication capacity at Broadcom.  It can't.  At most it can affect scheduling of what is fabricated on capacity-limited equipment so that RS's devices get manufactured before those of another customer.  The restricted fabrication capacity remains restricted though, whether it is producing devices for RS or for someone else.  An order won't bring a new fabrication plant online, that costs billions.  It is accurate to state (assuming of course that our speculation is correct) that Broadcom's lack of spare capacity is the limiting factor.

Aye yi yi, you just really don't get the way this works do you?  Turns out the explanation I typed up explaining how fab plants worked was far too complicated and long so it got trashed. I'll go from this approach.  RS had problems Farnell didn't.  If they had both had problems and the roku to boot than I'd be with you 100%!  If it worked the way you're suggesting it does than everyone would have issues equally.  Or at best it would rotate as each distributor got their share of limited capacity chip.  First RS would be short on supplies, then Farnell (then Roku).  Since this has obviously has not been the case, and since Billy has enlightened us that B-com is fabless and capacity would not be an issue for a company whose whole business model is getting the chips that have been ordered in the time frame they have been contractually limited to, then all signs indicate that the issue at hand was Farnell ordered enough to meet demand, Roku ordered enough to meet demand, and RS thought the Pi wouldn't be as successful as it has been and ordered a smaller quantity than Farnell.

Billy Thornton wrote:

 

... And remember, there is a 30wk (still don't [believe] that one) lead time - that's over 6 months, a lot can happen in 6 months...

The source on the 30 week lead time is liz herself.  Last September (2012) I heard Rob Bishop say 23 weeks, so it's gotten worse.  As you say, >6 months is a long time and fads can be short-lived.  For example, Richard Lester made A Hard Day's Night (1964) on a very short schedule since nobody knew how long the Beatles would be popular   So I can see why neither distributor would want to be stuck with unsellable BCM2835 inventory.

Interesting that the fab times are getting worse.  Maybe it's Apple booking up prime fab time so they can peevishly distance themselves further from Samsung.  Or the fabs are swamped making Allwinner A10s and A13s.

Used to work in the industry - times vary according to what's popular - probably new models of phone coming out soon - Christmas tends to cause a rush of new product hitting the market, so the fabs will be backed up which would result in longer lead times. Probably not Apple, although their production is moving away from Samsung, so might be going to TSMC or similar. The sort of volume there would dwarf the raspberry pi, so it's not surprising that's backed up. If I were a manufacturer I'd be building the high profit chips, not low profit stuff like the 2835 (or the Allwinners, but they would be in Chinese fabs anyway). Which is exactly what is happening.

Billy Thornton wrote:

 

... Probably not Apple, although their production is moving away from Samsung, so might be going to TSMC or similar. The sort of volume there would dwarf the raspberry pi, so it's not surprising that's backed up. If I were a manufacturer I'd be building the high profit chips, not low profit stuff like the 2835 (or the Allwinners, but they would be in Chinese fabs anyway). Which is exactly what is happening.

According to this Allwinner press release, the A10 is manufactured by TSMC, one of the fabs used by Broadcom.  So lots of competition for a limited amount of fab.

John Beetem wrote:

 

 

For example, Richard Lester made A Hard Day's Night (1964) on a very short schedule since nobody knew how long the Beatles would be popular

Ahh, the Fab Four

John Beetem wrote:

 

 

For example, Richard Lester made A Hard Day's Night (1964) on a very short schedule since nobody knew how long the Beatles would be popular

Ahh, the Fab Four