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Ask an Expert Forum Stereo Phono Cartridge to both Stereo and Mono Amps
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Stereo Phono Cartridge to both Stereo and Mono Amps

TC_Walker
TC_Walker over 3 years ago

Hello,

I am interested in a project to take a stereo signal from a record needle cartridge and split the signal into a stereo amp and also a mono amp to be used at the same time (and independently with some switching). I have tried a couple of simple methods that negatively effected the stereo signal. I am thinking op amps might be a way to do this but I am unable to design this. Regardless of what method is used sharing your knowledge would be so greatly appreciated.

- Tom

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  • michaelkellett
    michaelkellett over 3 years ago +2
    Shabaz explains the principle in his message. (Although I think 1k resistors may be too low for some pre-amps) The problem is that a good mono mix is not made by adding the two channels of a stereo mix…
  • shabaz
    shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to michaelkellett +2
    Hi Michael, I found a reference to ceramic pickups on http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/library/ampartew.htm which directed to a Wireless World article. In the August 1971 PDF issue of Wireless World…
  • michaelkellett
    michaelkellett over 3 years ago in reply to TC_Walker +2
    It looks as if you are going to try building a pre-amp based on the WW design. Meanwhile I have a little charge amplifier from Jan Cumps to test. He designed the board based on some suggestions from…
  • michaelkellett
    0 michaelkellett over 3 years ago in reply to TC_Walker

    The volume control impedance is so low that you really will need a pre-amp. Shabaz has suggested a Doug Self circuit (below) which I think could be simplified to suit your purposes.

    It can use readily avaialbe NPN transistors so should be easy to build.

    If you think that would be a good way to go I'll re-draw just the bits you need and run a simulation of it.

    MK

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  • TC_Walker
    0 TC_Walker over 3 years ago in reply to michaelkellett

    MK,

    I reviewed the PDF article (located on the PDF's page 59). The writer is very thorough. Based on what I know and read here it seems like a tailored and viable model.

    Tom

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  • michaelkellett
    0 michaelkellett over 3 years ago in reply to michaelkellett

    Sorry, I was a bit hasty there. The input is buffered by the first stage amplifier before the volume control so you can connect the ceramic cartridge directly to the amplfier.

    MK

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  • TC_Walker
    0 TC_Walker over 3 years ago in reply to michaelkellett

    MK

    I went ahead and ordered the BC109's so I have them on hand this week.

    Tom

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  • michaelkellett
    0 michaelkellett over 3 years ago in reply to TC_Walker

    It looks as if you are going to try building a pre-amp based on the WW design.

    Meanwhile I have a little charge amplifier from Jan Cumps to test. He designed the board based on some suggestions from me and kindly sent a pcb and parts. I'm going to re-tune it to work as a ceramic cartridge pre-amplifier. I've bought a really cheap cartidge from Amazon to test.

    I'll do a proper blog about it when I have some data.

    MK

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  • TC_Walker
    0 TC_Walker over 3 years ago in reply to michaelkellett
    michaelkellett said:
    I'll re-draw just the bits you need and run a simulation of it.

    MK,

    Will you be doing this? I purchased the BC109's in anticipation of it.

    Tom

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  • shabaz
    0 shabaz over 3 years ago in reply to TC_Walker


    Hi TC,

    Want to try a parallel suggestion?

    Michael's op amp method will likely be a lot better since the WW article is old.

    I had some time and simulated the luxury version WW circuit, but I'm limited because (a) I don't know how to simulate a ceramic cartridge, and (b) I was hitting a component license limit with the software.

    Also, (c) I don't have audio experience whereas Michael does, so it's best to go with any recommendation from Michael.

    Anyway, you could try both circuits if you like, if you have the parts.

    From the simulation, it seems pretty reasonable (I subjected what I thought was a large signal, 200mVp-p, and the output was around 2.6Vp-p, and the distortion was 0.1% at 100Hz, 1kHz, and 10 kHz. At 100mVp-p, the distortion dropped to 0.06% at these frequencies. I subjected the input to C1 in the simulated circuit below. The response was good across the entire audio range, and the tone controls functioned. However none of this matters if the input isn't the same, and I can't add much to the simulation since I'm at exactly 50 components (the limit) unless I split up and test portions.

    Anyway, if you think it's worth a gamble, I'm happy to put this into a CAD package and generate a simple circuit board CAD files (it's only a few tens of $ including postage, if you give the files to any PCB manufacturer to get the board printed).

    If you do get it printed and you have spares (usually they give 5-10 boards) then if I could make a request, I wouldn't mind one to experiment with (and perhaps Michael would like one too).

    image

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  • shabaz
    0 shabaz over 3 years ago

    It took a bit longer than expected, there's a lot of BC109's! 

    The image below shows just the left channel, I will copy-paste it to make the right channel once this one is reviewed. There is a PDF version of the circuit which may be easier to see.

    I wanted to highlight/ask these things:

    1. I've only used through-hole parts, so the board might end up being perhaps eurocard-sized, but as I understand there is room for that. 

    2. I've added a Line input too, since it's low-hanging fruit. If it's not needed, then the footprint for the relay contacts can be easily jumpered with wire, since then the relays (one for each channel since they are inexpensive and will simplify the layout) are not required.

    3. The mono output is perhaps a few hundred mVp-p when the main output is say 2V p-p, since the mono input will be expecting a low amplitude, but I don't know the precise value, so there are trimmers for that, labelled VR6 on the left channel.

    3. It needs an approx 24V supply, I'm thinking I could add a bridge rectifier if desired so that it can connect to a transformer. What's the opinion on that? 

    4. Considering adding a couple of small solder-in fuses on the mono output connections (both signal and ground) in case some problem occurs with the vintage equipment; is this a good idea, or not necessary?

    image

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  • michaelkellett
    0 michaelkellett over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz

    Hello Shabaz.

    I measured the capacity of my El-cheapo ceramic cartridge (£4 from Amazon) and it's about 1.1nF so the amplifier should have an input impedance (resistive) of about 3E6 ohms.

    Fo a first approximation the cartridge can be modelled by a voltage source in series with a 1nF capacitor.

    MK

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  • michaelkellett
    0 michaelkellett over 3 years ago in reply to shabaz

    I have to say that I really don't "rate" the luxury version of the circuit - its way to complicated and very 5 decades ago.

    It also uses a very supsect and noisy technique of running the ceramic pickup into a low impedance with two pots and attenuation on the input signal for maximum noise. The 50k pot is an impedance matching effort. But the net effect of all this is to introduce a first order high pass filter with a -3dB point at about 1kHz and then recover the response with the frequency compensation in the first stage amplifier. That is pretty yucky.

    I would go for a high input impedance op amp buffer or possibly a charge amplifier with a first order high and low pass filters set to approx 50Hz and 15kHz. Equalization can be added once the signal is buffered and at a reasonable impedance level.

    I'd expect the cartridge to have about 100mV ouput (won't know untill I test) so even a fairly rough op amp with 10nV/rtHz noise will give a signal to noise ratio of 98dB - which is way better than the vinyl.

    Fine tuning the equalization means using a frequency response test record (if you are willing to sacrifice one to a ceramic pickup) and measuring the arm cartridge resonance frequency and Q - or else do it by ear !

    I don't quite understand Q6 and Q7 in your circuit.

    The 220nF across the emitter load resitance will just introduce a lot of distortion at higher frequencies.

    Why not mix the two channels at the mix ballance pot (feed once channel into each end via 22k) and have just one buffer amplifier.

    MK

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