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  • Author Author: jc2048
  • Date Created: 22 May 2021 10:41 AM Date Created
  • Views 1531 views
  • Likes 14 likes
  • Comments 36 comments
  • transistor
  • 2n3904
  • noise
  • analog
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The Art of Noise

jc2048
jc2048
22 May 2021

22nd May 2021

 

image

 

I've just been playing with a very simple noise generator and that's the result.

The digital phosphor of the oscilloscope presents multiple traces of the waveform as though it were sketched with a pencil or crayon.

 

In case it's of any interest, here's the circuit:

 

image

 

The internet is full of variations, with either a Zener, reverse-biased LED, or reverse-biased base-emitter junction as the avalanche 'noise diode'.

 

image

 

 

For these traces I used a reverse-biased base-emitter junction (the transistor on the left with two pins connected - the other transistor is working as a common-emitter amplifier)

and it produced a very good level of noise out on a 12V supply.

 

At lower frequencies (the scope is AC-coupled for these), the noise looks quite noise-like. Like this:

 

image

 

but if I go back to the start and show you a single trace of the first waveform, we see this

 

image

 

so we're now looking at a time scale where we can see the avalanching stopping and starting.

 

Update 4th June 2021

 

What started as a throwaway blog about an interesting/amusing waveform seems to have taken on a life of its own.

 

Thanks for all the useful comments below. They've had the useful effect of forcing me to rethink some of this.

 

1. The original circuit that I copied had an integrator (low-pass filter) in the feedback of the common-emitter stage

[the 27k and the 10uF] to set the DC bias voltage. That means that the resulting overall transfer characteristic will

be high-pass [the inverse]. I should have considered that a bit more at the time. If I simulate it with this following

circuit (I've substituted a simple signal generator, with an 8V DC offset on it, for the 'noise diode' which is the input to the circuit)

 

image

I get this for the response

 

image

That won't be entirely right - the simulation is small-signal and the generator is working large-signal - but it lets us

see in a rough way what's happening and understand it in general terms. It falls off from a few hundred Hertz downwards.

That means I'm going to see very little of the low frequency noise as the circuit will integrate it away. Indeed, if I had wanted

to use the generator circuit for audio, it would probably have been better if I had moved the low end cut-off down by

another decade [100uF might do instead of the 10uF].

 

At the top end, that plot shows quite nicely that the response is determined largely by the amplifier transistor running

out of steam and that will depend to some extent on the individual transistor.

 

2. In my reply to Shabaz in the comments, I suggested that seeing the noise decline as I filtered it with the 'scopes

noise filtering meant that it wasn't white noise. That is quite wrong and I need to correct it. Since random noise level

is a function of bandwidth, if I restrict the bandwith, I lessen the noise seen. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily

'white' noise [equal power per unit of bandwidth], but it most certainly doesn't mean the opposite [that it's not].

 

In Motchenbacher and Fitchen, they suggest that avalanche noise is white but that there is also excess noise

in the form of multistate noise that is predominently l/f. This is in a section comparing the noise performance

of zener and avalanche diodes, though I presume a reverse-biased base-emitter junction is similar.

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Top Comments

  • geralds
    geralds over 2 years ago in reply to shabaz +6
    shabaz wrote: Hi Jon, Very interesting blog post, I had not known noise could be generated at these levels with such a simple circuit! Yes, that's an age-old way of creating noise. Simply operate a transistor…
  • fmilburn
    fmilburn over 2 years ago +5
    By coincidence I became interested in these circuits recently, mostly with the idea of making a random number generator. Horowitz and Hill have one in the Art of Electronics but I also found a good article…
  • Jan Cumps
    Jan Cumps over 2 years ago in reply to shabaz +5
    My Tektronic TBS2xxx scope had a reasonable spectrum display. Not magic, but (almost) workable in that frequency range. I gave it away to a makerspace here in Belgium, so that avenue is closed. A SA is…
  • cstanton
    cstanton over 1 year ago

    I love seeing electronics explored just to see what happens with them image

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  • jc2048
    jc2048 over 1 year ago in reply to fmilburn

    Have a look at this link from Maxim: Building a Low-Cost White-Noise Generator (maximintegrated.com)  Is the SA used in the Maxim link unable to do analysis at low frequency along the line of reasoning that Shabaz described?

    Sorry, forgot to come back and reply to the question.

     

    In that particular case, the reason that there's no low-frequency noise is the AC coupling between the amplifiers. The 470pF coupling capacitor and the 50 Ohm input impedance of the amplifier result in a high pass filter.

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  • jc2048
    jc2048 over 2 years ago in reply to fmilburn

    The reason I was curious about the transistor is that Navadeep Ganesh U was using a BC547 (fT probably something similar to 2N3904, but beta much higher).

     

    The low frequency spectra is interesting. The circuit naturally rolls off at the low end from about 100Hz downwards because of the integrator in the bias feedback. If the noise were perfectly white, then it should simply show us the amplifier response at the output - the noise multiplied by the gain. (Qualification: that assumes linearity, which won't quite be the case here because the output signal hardly qualifies as 'small signal'.) But it doesn't - it's more or less flat from 100Hz down.

     

    The noise book I've got says that avalanche diodes suffer from more excess noise [it's contrasting them with diodes where the Zener effect dominates and which are, therefore, better if you want a low-noise reference]. Excess noise is over and above the white noise and is generally l/f (low-frequency) noise. It will cause the overall noise to rise as the frequency falls. I was wondering whether we might see that.

     

    These are the two FFT traces I was having difficulty with.

     

    This first is AC coupled and seems to show a very low level of noise and the response looks to be the amplifier response, rolling off below 100Hz. That's with the noise filter quite close to the Nyquist rate for the FFT [too close?].

     

    image

     

    This next is DC coupled with the offset removed, which seems to result in a much higher level of signal and the noise actually increasing from 100Hz down. This time the filter is further up, so is aliasing posing a problem?

     

    image

     

    Neither is the result you've just got.

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  • fmilburn
    fmilburn over 2 years ago in reply to jc2048

    I am using 2N3904 transistor.  Below is the trace with 1kHz span and center 500Hz.

    image

    I twiddled knobs in FFT mode and move the horizontal start to better match your FFT view above and  got this:

    image

     

    I don't understand what magic is involved.  Have a look at this link from Maxim: Building a Low-Cost White-Noise Generator (maximintegrated.com)  Is the SA used in the Maxim link unable to do analysis at low frequency along the line of reasoning that Shabaz described?

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  • jc2048
    jc2048 over 2 years ago in reply to fmilburn

    Thanks for showing us the spectra. It's interesting seeing what an instrument that operates more like a traditional SA makes of it.

     

    If I set my 'scope to have a long persistence, it shows me the envelope of the response better.

     

    This plot is 0 to 2.5MHz, so centre is 1.25MHz. It shows the amplifier roll-off from about 250kHz, which isn't too much different to yours, so it's encouraging that I'm viewing something sensible.

     

    image

     

    What type of transistor were you using?

     

    I'm much more confused about the other end of the scale in the region from a few hundred Hz downwards. I can get radically different results, depending on the settings I use and how I make the measurement. Would you be able to do a trace with a span of 1kHz and a centre of 500Hz?

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