Is it worth persevering?

Nigel Molesworth schrieb:

I'm tearing my hair out trying to get to grips with Eagle. I'm not sure if

it's me, but I find almost everything about it counter-intuitive.

 

I plan to make a couple of boards each year, for my own use. I'd happily pay

a reasonable sum for a more intuitive package, but I like the fact that

Eagle files are widely used.

 

Is it worth persevering, or is there something out there that is reasonably

priced, and will read Eagle files?

From reading your posts, it appears to me that you try to use such a

complex and specialized software package without even having had a look

at the manual and/or tutorial.

That way, I fear you will find all CAD packages to be non-intuitive.

From my experience, EAGLE is the (by far) most efficient and

user-friendly PCB layout CAD at least in the "affordable" price range.

There are packages which are much more expensive but a pain to work

with... However, you have to learn (and understand) how it works, and

how it's operated.

Take the time to (literally!) work through the tutorial, also have a

look at the manual and the available help (older posts in these

newsgroups, beginner's tutotials in the web, FAQ at the CadSoft

website). Use the HELP function extensively. Dig into the UI and the

conecpts of EAGLE and do some test layouts (just for learning) before

you start real work.

Tilmann

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:11:23 +0100, Tilmann Reh <user@domain.invalid> wrote:

Take the time to (literally!) work through the tutorial, also have a

look at the manual

I have printed the tutorial and the manual, and have read both from cover to

cover, twice. Neither make sense to me.

I have attempted to work through the tutorial, although the discrepancies

and poor choice of conventions make this more difficult than it should be.

I should point out that I have taught computer studies at university level.

Nigel Molesworth wrote:

I have printed the tutorial and the manual, and have read both from cover to

cover, twice.

Good

Neither make sense to me.

Let it rest for a while take it easy, try things, and you might get it.

I have attempted to work through the tutorial, although the discrepancies

and poor choice of conventions make this more difficult than it should be.

Yes different programs are different "cultures" to learn

I should point out that I have taught computer studies at university level.

I failed my math course but i understand Eagle and a few other things...

"Nigel Molesworth" <reply@thegroup.email.invalid> wrote in message

news:3065i45rmqefn0mg0m1jc3dt14uqsbmke5@4ax.com...

I'm tearing my hair out trying to get to grips with Eagle. I'm not sure if

it's me, but I find almost everything about it counter-intuitive.

 

I plan to make a couple of boards each year, for my own use. I'd happily

pay

a reasonable sum for a more intuitive package, but I like the fact that

Eagle files are widely used.

 

Is it worth persevering, or is there something out there that is

reasonably

priced, and will read Eagle files?

 

--

Nigel M

 

I'm discussing apples, so don't suggest bananas

Hi, Nigel

Bottom line is I'd certainly say "Yes, Eagle is the very best tool for

making PCB's that you currently can find at an affordable price." Hands

down, it's a fact.

That said, Eagle does present its own and unique high learning curve. But so

does any complex computer program. For example, MS Office is composed of

many interacting modules (Word, Access Power Point, etc.) and each of them

are themselves very complex and user modifiable. To really be proficient

with all the offered abilities of MS Office, or Eagle for that matter, takes

a large commitment in time and willingness to learn how to do all the things

a program is capable of. Until true AI comes along, there is no such thing

as "just use it". Because learning is confusing, there are classes to take

for learning how to use complex programs. Eagle is no exception, I think it

was in the Eagle userchat group that I just saw a recently posted message

where a class is being held in Canada by an Eagle dealer. But my experiences

with taking classes, such as for dBase, left me with much desired because

classes don't offer much individual training. I found that learning what I

need to know about any complex computer program was best performed by just

jumping in and learning how to get the results expected and, when necessary,

asking specific questions in forums, such as this one that this message is

posted to.

I'm from the pre Windows 3.1 days so the way Eagle goes about doing things

seems pretty obvious to me to be the way old programs were written before

Windows redefined certain functionalities. To me, it seems that the

underlying "engine" of Eagle is very old (but still very good at what it

does) and predates Windows itself and that's seems to be why things seem

counter intuitive when it comes to performing certain actions. For example,

the purpose of "copy" as used in Eagle is not the same as what it means when

using the same named function in Windows. But before Windows came along, how

Eagle does it now was exactly how it was done with most programs back in

those days. Since I date from back then the knowledge helped me, but I do

understand that a new user of Eagle will find the methodologies of just

using the program counter intuitive to the way it is done with programs that

are designed from the ground up to use Windows methods of doing things.

Then, of course, one must learn about the PCB industry itself because Eagle

is a tool that allows one to create files that industry needs to physically

create what is designed by using Eagle (or any other PCB related tool). The

old saying "garbage in, garbage out" applies because Eagle only does, with

user modifiable rules, exactly what you tell it to do. The physical PCB

industry has practical constraints on things such as the minimum width of

traces, pads, distance between pads and traces and board edges, and so on &

on, and not every board production house does things the same way. FT (feed

though) parts are old technology and perhaps the very easiest to design for

using Eagle. But SMD (surface mount device) is a different animal, you have

to understand what paste (aka cream) and "stop" and other terms, many of

which have "aka" terms too, mean to the industry. Eagle allows you to define

such things, but you have to know what they mean and so you have to take the

time to learn. If you're designing with RF (radio frequency) in mind, more

industry rules apply!

There's an even older saying: All good things come in time. That's what it's

going to take for the new PCB designer regardless of what program is used to

design with. Eagle is worth the effort, and it is cost effective.

And I'm saying all of the above as a relatively new user of any PCB deign

software whatsoever.

RGM wrote:

"Nigel Molesworth" <reply@thegroup.email.invalid> wrote in message

news:3065i45rmqefn0mg0m1jc3dt14uqsbmke5@4ax.com...

I'm tearing my hair out trying to get to grips with Eagle. I'm not

sure if

it's me, but I find almost everything about it counter-intuitive.

 

I plan to make a couple of boards each year, for my own use. I'd

happily pay

a reasonable sum for a more intuitive package, but I like the fact that

Eagle files are widely used.

 

Is it worth persevering, or is there something out there that is

reasonably

priced, and will read Eagle files?

 

--

Nigel M

 

I'm discussing apples, so don't suggest bananas

 

Hi, Nigel

Bottom line is I'd certainly say "Yes, Eagle is the very best tool for

making PCB's that you currently can find at an affordable price." Hands

down, it's a fact.

 

That said, Eagle does present its own and unique high learning curve.

But so does any complex computer program. For example, MS Office is

composed of many interacting modules (Word, Access Power Point, etc.)

and each of them are themselves very complex and user modifiable. To

really be proficient with all the offered abilities of MS Office, or

Eagle for that matter, takes a large commitment in time and willingness

to learn how to do all the things a program is capable of. Until true AI

comes along, there is no such thing as "just use it". Because learning

is confusing, there are classes to take for learning how to use complex

programs. Eagle is no exception, I think it was in the Eagle userchat

group that I just saw a recently posted message where a class is being

held in Canada by an Eagle dealer. But my experiences with taking

classes, such as for dBase, left me with much desired because classes

don't offer much individual training. I found that learning what I need

to know about any complex computer program was best performed by just

jumping in and learning how to get the results expected and, when

necessary, asking specific questions in forums, such as this one that

this message is posted to.

 

I'm from the pre Windows 3.1 days so the way Eagle goes about doing

things seems pretty obvious to me to be the way old programs were

written before Windows redefined certain functionalities. To me, it

seems that the underlying "engine" of Eagle is very old (but still very

good at what it does) and predates Windows itself and that's seems to be

why things seem counter intuitive when it comes to performing certain

actions. For example, the purpose of "copy" as used in Eagle is not the

same as what it means when using the same named function in Windows. But

before Windows came along, how Eagle does it now was exactly how it was

done with most programs back in those days. Since I date from back then

the knowledge helped me, but I do understand that a new user of Eagle

will find the methodologies of just using the program counter intuitive

to the way it is done with programs that are designed from the ground up

to use Windows methods of doing things.

 

Then, of course, one must learn about the PCB industry itself because

Eagle is a tool that allows one to create files that industry needs to

physically create what is designed by using Eagle (or any other PCB

related tool). The old saying "garbage in, garbage out" applies because

Eagle only does, with user modifiable rules, exactly what you tell it to

do. The physical PCB industry has practical constraints on things such

as the minimum width of traces, pads, distance between pads and traces

and board edges, and so on & on, and not every board production house

does things the same way. FT (feed though) parts are old technology and

perhaps the very easiest to design for using Eagle. But SMD (surface

mount device) is a different animal, you have to understand what paste

(aka cream) and "stop" and other terms, many of which have "aka" terms

too, mean to the industry. Eagle allows you to define such things, but

you have to know what they mean and so you have to take the time to

learn. If you're designing with RF (radio frequency) in mind, more

industry rules apply!

 

There's an even older saying: All good things come in time. That's what

it's going to take for the new PCB designer regardless of what program

is used to design with. Eagle is worth the effort, and it is cost

effective.

 

And I'm saying all of the above as a relatively new user of any PCB

deign software whatsoever.

have a look at the tutorials here. http://www.tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:44:07 +1100, Andrew <taffy@velocitynet.com.au> wrote:

have a look at the tutorials here. http://www.tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/

Thank you. I found these yesterday, but it's good to get an endorsement.

I think I understand a bit more now, and it seems the weirdness comes from

its Linux roots. This said, it really needs an update to current practice.

Perhaps if I turn off the sound it would be less annoying!

Nigel Molesworth wrote:

This said, it really needs an update to current practice.

I like to be able to choose from very different products.

That applies to all business segments, and life

If some way of diong things hing does not suit you, try another

practice.  That would be hard if all products were alike.  People are

different.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:44:07 +1100, Andrew <taffy@velocitynet.com.au> wrote:

have a look at the tutorials here. http://www.tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/

I also found a bunch of nice Eagle tutorials here:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Draw-Electronic-Schematics-with-CadSoft-EAGLE/

Nigel Molesworth wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:44:07 +1100, Andrew <taffy@velocitynet.com.au> wrote:

 

have a look at the tutorials here. http://www.tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/

 

I also found a bunch of nice Eagle tutorials here:

 

http://www.instructables.com/id/Draw-Electronic-Schematics-with-CadSoft-EAGLE/

 

 

Hi

Nigel it took me about a week to get to grips with Eagle, OK I may have

an advantage that I come from that "weird " software background linux.

You have to remember Eagles roots and think tutonically, when you do

this you will find it much easier to understand.

I suspect due to your educational background you are trying proceed by

jumping stages. If you work through it step by step in a purely logical

way you will find it alll  will make sense..

I hope that makes sense,  no way am I knocking the Germans or their products

BR

Richard

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:45:46 +0000, "Richard.Bown"

<richard.bown@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

If you work through it step by step in a purely logical

way you will find it alll  will make sense..

It all makes sense now, see this post:

Message-ID: <k6ufi45ah6jgmh2u16np9nj3nbd1fl8bon@4ax.com>