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Eagle v8 licensing...

technolomaniac

Hi All --

 

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

 

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  image

 

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.

 

Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

 

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

 

"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"

 

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req.  So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

 

Caveat:  to install an update, you will need to login.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

 

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will.

 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

 

Best regards,

 

Matt Berggren

Director - Autodesk

@technolomaniac

hackaday.io/matt

  • in reply to autodeskguest

    On 19.01.2017 09:19, Tilmann Reh wrote:

    Matt Berggren schrieb:

     

    Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

    OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me.

     

    You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models:

    one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as

    before: you get a key, you own the software.)

     

    Tilmann

     

     

    Yep, thats what I suggested. And for me also the only option.

     

  • Hi Matt,

     

    I already had my most pressing concern answered to my satisfaction by Jorge which was relating to still being able to run EAGLE on multiple machines as I need to run it up across at least 3 different machines in my lab, but it seems I can still do that so all is good there.

     

    If I was pressed on the subscription issue, I would say that I do much prefer to just buy the software outright, but if subscription is the only way from now on then so be it, I will deal. Having to activate the license with an Autodesk account isn't really something that will often be an issue for me as my machines are always on the internet but I can see why others my find this more problematic. I do understand why you are changing it, but I think it's a very sensitive subject for a lot of people though because of the debacle with the licensing when v7 was first released, so any changes in this area are going to come under a lot of scrutiny from the loyal EAGLE user base who stuck with CadSoft previously. I do wonder if it would be possible to satisfy the need for a permanent license which doesn't expire within your new licensing system though? How about the following as licensing options?

     

    1) Free license. Activate initially and lasts forever. Upgrading to new versions would simply require a one time server activation each time they upgraded.

     

    2) Monthly license. Activate at start of month. Software will run for 1 calendar month and then attempt to re-activate with the server. Autodesk account could be set up to either auto renew or a one off payment requiring a new purchase, this would ensure people didn't buy another month without realising they would be doing so, or forgetting to cancel a direct debit. This is one of my issues with monthly subscription software, it's easy to forget to cancel the subscription and that can be annoying. Upgrades to new versions will be accessible so long as a valid subscription still exists and as per free would require activating with the server.

     

    3) 1/2/3 Year licenses. As per monthly but for longer periods of time. Full access to any upgrades within this period as per the monthly license. At the end of the 1/2/3 year period it could be possible to offer to either a) take out another subscription, b) cancel any direct debits (if a one was set up) and discontinue use, or c) Make an additional payment to convert the longer term fixed period licenses to permanent licenses so people could continue at their current version (or versions within the same release version) indefinitely. See below.

     

    4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the moment.

     

    I think all of these could be covered by the Autodesk licensing system, hopefully without too much difficulty and without conflicting with the objectives of Autodesk, and I think they might satisfy most of what people would require. I don't think you'd have to have a strange hybrid of the old and new licensing systems within the one piece of software....

     

    Best Regards,


    Rachael

  • in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:07

    4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial

    setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same

    version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available

    for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the

    other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and

    installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their

    permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered

    at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the

    moment.

     

     

    Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older

    versions.

    No need to activate again when you replace your computer.

    What if they pull the plug from the activation server?

     

    The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's

    absolutely NO REASON

    to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a

    pirated & patched copy will

    appear on the internet/torrents.

    As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but

    will not stop piracy.

     

     

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

  • Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 18 January 2017 14:26

    WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the

    license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV

    star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. 

     

    Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and

    alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us at all to upset the users

    we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their

    business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I

    can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. 

    We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game

    developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that

    shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these

    categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a

    path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools'

    viability under this model.  Not helpful.

     

     

    Hi Matt,

     

    We don't know what will happen in the future with respect to licensing and

    activations for Eagle, and its overall direction.

     

    Don't forget that these were the same assurances that companies gave to

    people when they sold DRM'ed music files. After all, it's impossible that a

    company like Microsoft would ever shut down any of its authorisation

    servers? Remember what happened there?

     

    I've been using Eagle for more than a decade. Some folks on this list for

    twice that. On long timescales none of us, not even anyone at Autodesk, can

    predict how the CAD and business landscape will change, and priorities

    shift.

     

    I know you're trying to keep things lighthearted, but I'm concerned that

    with your talk of mountain bases and alien invasions that you don't truly

    grasp the probabilities and the stakes here.

     

    In the longer term there is the potential for Eagle to be replaced with

    another product, or Autodesk to run into serious difficulty (it can happen

    to ANY company. Remember Nokia? Yahoo? Autodesk is a small company by

    comparison).  There is also the potential for Eagle to stop supporting a

    particular platform, and so it becomes impossible activate even a

    previously released version of Eagle.

     

    In the shorter term there are very real risks associated with phone-home

    licensing. All of the following I have experienced with such schemes in the

    past:

     

    • Internet connectivity issues at my end

    • License server downtime

    • System changes my end that cause the license check to fail

     

    Now we may all have live with these risks and try to manage them as well as

    possible. But please understand that these are all real possibilities, with

    potentially serious consequences. They are not the preserve of people

    trecking to remote places. Indeed just visiting a factory can be a

    situation with limited connectivity and incredibly time-sensitive need to

    access board designs.

     

    Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 18 January 2017 14:26

    So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to

    login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that,

    you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without

    connection. 

     

     

    This might seem like a trivial detail but I think it has big consequences.

     

    It is important that it be possible to use Eagle in at least read-only mode

    after installation without pinging Autodesk servers.

     

    As I've outlined above, there are plenty of possibilities, both short term

    temporary issues in the present, and potentially more permanent problems in

    the future, that may lead to Eagle not being being able to successfully

    authenticate (or update) after installation (or reinstallation, perhaps due

    to a software or system problem).

     

    Up until now we have had certainty that with a copy of the relevant Eagle

    installation binary and our license key, no matter what happens, including

    any temporary problems or bigger changes in the future, we will be able to

    open any designs we've created. Even if it means one day spinning up a

    virtual machine with an older OS for compatibility with an old Eagle

    version.

     

    The new scheme removes that confidence.

     

    Whilst this whole change is of course unwelcome, I would feel better if you

    could guarantee that Eagle will be able to fall back to being a reader NO

    MATTER WHAT, and no matter whether it has ever talked to Autodesk servers.

     

    You might feel that we sound like stubborn obsessives. I know that you are

    dedicated to making Eagle a success, and maybe you feel that you have

    staked your career on it. But for many of us running small businesses based

    on our hardware, we really do have our livelihoods tied up in these

    designs. Eagle might change direction and leave us behind, or you may move

    on to better things, but we will still need to know with complete certainty

    that we can access all our work, past and present.

     

    Can you help us out here with at least a guaranteed read-only fallback

    mode?

     

    Thanks.

     

    ps. Congratulations on the new features, they look great. I'm sorry so much

    focus is on this less pleasant topic, but it is honestly absolutely

    critical.

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

  • in reply to Joop14

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older

    versions.

    No need to activate again when you replace your computer.

    What if they pull the plug from the activation server?

     

     

    I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge company and have been providing products in other areas for many years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is miniscule.

     

    Joop14 wrote:

     

    The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's

    absolutely NO REASON

    to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a

    pirated & patched copy will

    appear on the internet/torrents.

    As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but

    will not stop piracy.

    I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some alterations to make it suit all users a little better.

     

    Best Regards,


    Rachael

  • in reply to autodeskguest

    Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh:

    Matt Berggren schrieb:

     

    Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

    OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me.

     

    You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models:

    one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as

    before: you get a key, you own the software.)

     

    Tilmann

     

     

    As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at

    CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable.

     

    Friedrich

    -

    ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a

    functional news reader like Thunderbird!

    ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca

    browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

     

  • in reply to Justynb

    justyn wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:05

    Can you help us out here with at least a guaranteed read-only fallback

    mode?

     

     

    Just to clarify my earlier message, I mean a read-only mode that still

    allows manufacturing data to be generated.

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

  • in reply to omega-5

    Friedrich Bleikamp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:17

    Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh:

     

    As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at

    CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable.

     

    Friedrich

     

     

    That's a good point, there used to be volume discounts didn't there? I've

    only got the one license so never paid attention to that aspect but yes if

    I had to buy more seats then that would be a factor to consider.

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

  • in reply to rachaelp

    rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:11

    I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge

    company and have been providing products in other areas for many years.

    They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going to go out of

    business an the foreseeable future I don't think so the risk of not being

    able to re-activate the permanent license is miniscule.

     

     

    I understand, but big companies still go out of business (or effectively do

    from the perspective of customers). How about Nokia and Blackberry? It

    didn't take that long for them to go from seeming invincible to being

    defunct.

     

    And they don't need to go out of business, only change their priorities.

    They might decide that your particular platform isn't worth supporting

    anymore, and you're in such a minority they'll ignore the fuss.

     

    rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:11

    I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as

    you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the

    licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more

    about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with

    lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more

    accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little

    as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by

    lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from

    monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk

    as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more

    about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister

    about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some

    alterations to make it suit all users a little better.

     

     

    Sincerely, if the issue is more about offering the subscription pricing

    model then it should still be possible for them to in addition offer a

    permanent, offline license at a premium.

    --

    http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.  Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

     

  • in reply to Justynb

    Justyn B wrote:

     

    I understand, but big companies still go out of business (or effectively do

    from the perspective of customers). How about Nokia and Blackberry? It

    didn't take that long for them to go from seeming invincible to being

    defunct.

    Yes that's a valid point but I think Nokia and Blackberry were in a completely different situation to Autodesk. They got big in the difficult telecoms space during the technology boom in that sector and then failed to react quickly when Apple came along with the iPhone. Also, they sold hardware, the costs and complexity of manufacturing and distribution for selling physical items worldwide and dealing with all the appropriate regulatory requirements is immense. In comparison Autodesk is a large software company selling to a well defined group of people, i.e. those involved requiring CAD.

     

    Justyn B wrote:

     

    And they don't need to go out of business, only change their priorities.

    They might decide that your particular platform isn't worth supporting

    anymore, and you're in such a minority they'll ignore the fuss.

    That could be covered in the license agreements to ensure they were obliged to maintain the servers for perpetual licensing. These agreements set out their responsibilities to us as well as our responsibilities as users of their software.

     

    Justyn B wrote:

     

    Sincerely, if the issue is more about offering the subscription pricing

    model then it should still be possible for them to in addition offer a

    permanent, offline license at a premium.

    They should be able to offer a permanent license, I'm not convinced it absolutely needs to be completely offline but that would be the ideal scenario. Unfortunately I think that's unlikely to happen so being pragmatic about it and coming up with solutions that might enable permanent licenses in some form seems a sensible way forward.

     

    In general I can see the pace of development in EAGLE has increased rapidly and this is something I am personally very pleased about. It's a shame the v8 release has been overshadowed by issues around licensing but I think that was inevitable. What's important is that we see continued investment and development of new features that make EAGLE both affordable for makers/hobbyists and a powerful tool that engineering professionals can use which isn't so prohibitively expensive that only large corporations can afford to have it. I'm optimistic that EAGLE will get closer to the big three in terms of performance with the investment of Autodesk whilst increasing the affordability at the lower end. Only time will tell I guess but hopefully they will be receptive to feedback from the community to help get them there.

     

    Best Regards,

     

    Rachael